Hatter vs. Tab: The Codec Grudge Match [SPLIT]

[inanitydishamen]

Sorry to say, but running out of footage and repeating a part is not "art" or a "cinematography technique" (a misnomer, since you're not shooting the film or making it, just manipulating it). It's just plain lazy. You can dress it up all you want as "art" or "editing techniques" but not even an egotistical artsy director would repeat a clip that many times. Stuttering is one thing, you just got lazy with the chorus. Art is art, you interpret it a certain way, don't go telling people what to think about your art, or what the message is, they're perfectly capable of deciding that for themselves; and if you can't take a tiny bit of critisism about your "art" maybe, just maybe this isn't the gig for you.

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

Sorry Matt, my entertainment came to a screeching halt when I discovered your whole point is moot (see last post).

Actually my point is still quite valid, you obviously didn't read the SECOND post I just made. BTW, I do sorta find it interesting how suddenly you wake up and remember what the topic is when you jump to a conclusion and think you're suddenly right. Before, when you had quite a bit of doubt, you did just about everything you could to hide from the actual subject.

Thing of it is though, you didn't really pay close enough attention, huh Tab? I mean if that final release had been out for, heck at the very LEAST 2 or 3 months you might have a point, but it's been out for less than 2 weeks and since none of the other release versions of the codec pack have any autoupdate/reminder software installed with em...yeah, most people who already have the old pack installed aren't even gonna know about the new one.

Oh and then of course there's still the lil itty bitty problem with the fact that you can't seem to explain HOW or WHY using OGM is bad.

*double clicks on one of his OGM copies of Tenchi universe*

*right clicks, switches to English*

*right clicks, turns off subtitles*

*right clicks, switches back to Japanese*

Hrmmm...tell me again what's wrong with OGM, seem to be workin just peachy for me. Granted it doesn't have menu support and support for other stupid things like variable frame rates and yadda yadda yadda bunch of bullshit, but then that's not what the originator of the thread ASKED, now was it? No, no he only aksed about including multiple audio and video streams, nothing about menus or variable frame rates or CRC checking or any other bullshit.

The bottom line is that you lost this argument, your ego just won't get out fo the way long enough for you to admit it.

I'd love to show you where you asked me to explain how you don't understand mpeg 4, where you called divx 3 a program and said it was cracked because of bitrate limitations, and point out all the little critiques you threw in that directly resulted in anything I might have said 'off topic'. But I see no point. The reading is all in the last 4 pages, and if you can't grasp that, then I dunno what to tell ya.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=program

A set of coded instructions that enables a machine, especially a computer, to perform a desired sequence of operations.

A codec may not be an executable program in the direct sense, but it IS a part of a program. Nitpick some more, Tab., it really helps to show everyone that you know everything, REALLY.

*suddenly reminded of a scene in Kiddy Grade where Lumiere shows off HER forte to Viola and Cesario*

You might now a thing or two about encoding, but you don't know jack when it comes to hacking, cracking, programing, etc.

- Why use those GOP's? SVCD doesn't restrict it. The smart thing would be to make it adaptive, perhaps add a b-frame and keep i-frames at a minimum. Then again, *some* players get picky when you violate the DVD spec.

And what would the overall result be? Maybe a slight twinge less pixelization perhaps? Of course the thing about screwing around with the GOP is that usually while doing so can fix some lil errors, it usually winds up creating some new ones that weren't there, especially in video where where you have slow and fast motion sequences.

But come now, why stray so far off topic? The topic is closed, after all.

It's nice to see you can lose gracefully. ^_^

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

Sorry to say, but running out of footage and repeating a part is not "art" or a "cinematography technique" (a misnomer, since you're not shooting the film or making it, just manipulating it). It's just plain lazy. You can dress it up all you want as "art" or "editing techniques" but not even an egotistical artsy director would repeat a clip that many times. Stuttering is one thing, you just got lazy with the chorus.

I got lazy with the chorus? *snicker* Anybody else spot the irony in that statement?

I mean, they repeat the chorus...why not repeat the animation right along with it? Hrmmm.

And trust me, it wasn't out of laziness, it was out of style. I do in fact actually have an alternate animation sequence that used various shots of Jim, but after reviewing the two the later version just sorta lost the "feel" of the video. It simply lacked the elegance and harmony of the martial arts dance sequence and somehow it just felt right to have it in there twice.

And coincidentally I actually even produced a third version which had a slightly different setup that the first dance sequence, but again, it just didn't feel right.

Feel free to jump to some more conclusions about me and my work, inanitydishamen it makes you look REALLY smart. *rolls eyes*

[Tab.]

You seem to have lost the subject yourself, since it was never really a win/lose matter. Ogm's the toddler multi-stream container of yesteryear, it's doomed, that's the same thing I said in my first post that you had to spooge all over. You still haven't proven me wrong. All you've done is bring in a bunch of insults, which I debunked, which you then accused of being off topic. The only point you've made is that a relatively large amount of people downloading off of newsgroups and those who've used the k-lite codec pack can play ogm. And even that'll only hold up for another matter of weeks.

The thing is Matt, it's like if someone were to say 'hey, should I use divx 3 or xvid/divx 5'. Divx 3 may be supported among pretty much everyone, but it's dead. Some idiot subbing groups still use it, but it's dead. Support doesn't determine the future of a format. Extensibility does. The boy asked what he should use, and I stated a fact about the method he was choosing as advice. You made a bunch of futile efforts to prove me wrong, and here we are. And somehow I lost. Somehow there was something to lose to begin with. OHNOI FORGOT THIS WAS THE INTERNET.

Subject closed, there's really nothing left to discuss.

[Scintilla]

Maybe those old biddies on Doom9 just haven't quite figured out how to get it to work yet. Let me guess, they're still using Windows Media Player 9 as their player of choice. *snicker*

Am I the ONLY one who uses WMP9 (was 8 until a week or two ago)? And OGMs play fine in WMP9, as long as you've got that Ogg DirectShow filter and DirectVobSub. And unlike WMP8, WMP9 does aspect ratio correction for MPEG files.

Not to mention the bitrate limitations of mpeg2 streams burned onto CD (due to the cd reading speed of most set top players being low).

...um...you do understand that the DVD format *IS* an MPEG-2 stream, right? o_O

WHOOSH

Yeah maybe if you're trying to play DVDs and SVCDs on your Sony Playstation, Kid. Otherwise what AD said REALLY doesn't make any sense.

I got the impression that he was making a distinction between the <b>CD</b> reading speed and the <b>DVD</b> reading speed...

I figure if someone doesn't even have enough sense to download the K-lite codec pack and have a decent media player installed on their computer, or at the very least the ability to burn it as an SVCD and watch it on their DVD player...well then they probably just shouldn't bother. I'm not looking to cater to ignorance.

Don't we all have to do some amount of catering to some kind of audience if we want to get our AMVs out there and known?

You're using Windows Media Player? *shakes head* Boy this really just keeps gettin better and better.

You really don't have a grasp on this stuff, do you?:| Windows Media Player 6.4 is a bare-bones directshow player that's included in every version of windows from 95 up.

Nope. There's no version of WMP6 that works on Windows XP (at least not available from Microsoft's website). Unfortunate, too... I'd get it if there was one.

has some outdated version of WMP installed on his system

hey, cupcake and whatever. See that start>run button? Click it. Type in mplayer2.exe. You'd be amazed at the stuff you have installed.

The mplayer2.exe on Windows XP is WMP5, not 6. From what I've seen of WMP6, 5 isn't nearly as useful (video info and whatnot). And it doesn't do aspect ratio correction on MPEGs, if I remember correctly.

[jonmartensen]

Sorry about stretching the page :\

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

You seem to have lost the subject yourself, since it was never really a win/lose matter.

Checks the subject. It seems who ever split this thread had in mind a win/lose matter. Just an observation.

Ogm's the toddler multi-stream container of yesteryear,

Sorry, but you're getting just a bit ahead of yourself there. It's currently mainstream and unless Matroski, etc can actually offer something practical that OGM doesn't already offer, it probably won't go mainstream. As I said before, I've got no problems playing any OGM files on my computer, I can switch language tracks, audio tracks, etc without a hitch. So AGAIN I ask you, as far as multiple audio and video streams what is wrong with OGM? And no offense, but something based on a direct show filter is probably gonna be a LOT more stable than something some amateur programmer is trying to slap together from scratch. If OGMs the toddler multi-stream container that'd pretty much make Matroski the sperm at this point. It's got potential, it *MIGHT* be the next big thing, but at this point there's just no telling for certain and it'd be pretty foolish to just blindly jump in an start supporting new format after new format. If you want some good examples of some mass groups of people rejecting new formats, check out some of the PAR vs PAR2 discussion on Usenet...holy freakin keeristmas.

it's doomed, that's the same thing I said in my first post that you had to spooge all over. You still haven't proven me wrong.

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but as far as that's concerned the burden of proof lies on YOU not me. You say it's doomed...but then you offer no explanation as to why. You haven't provided even a SINGLE arguement as why people should stop using OGM. I mean, what's wrong with it? Oh yeah, nothing. I mean it might not be able to do CRC checking and have support for variable frames rates, but gee it can't make coffee and wash my car for me either. o_O

All you've done is bring in a bunch of insults,

I'm sorry, I'm a lil confused, are you talking about me, or yourself?

which I debunked, which you then accused of being off topic.

No, I accused you of being off topic because you WERE off topic. Every single thing I said you kept trying to twist it around to mean something else and then you'd start attacking that rather than what I had actually said. Essentially you were puttin up strawmen.

The only point you've made is that a relatively large amount of people downloading off of newsgroups and those who've used the k-lite codec pack can play ogm. And even that'll only hold up for another matter of weeks.

Yeah and beta is gonna make a comeback, REALLY. You just, don't get it. You think that whether something will be mainstream has everything to do with it's technical superiority and it simply does not. I can provide countless examples of that. Whether you wanna talk about minidisc players or 100mb floppy disks or pretty much ANYTHING Sega has ever introduced, etc, etc, etc.

Technical superiority has VERY little to do with whether something will become mainstream. And the BIGGEST problem that Matroski, etc have is that they don't improve on anything. All they do is add a bunch of bullshit extras that nobody really cares about in the first place. You think your average encoder REALLY wants freakin menu support? If they wanted that they would just encode it in the DVD format. Or CRC checking? Hello, that's why God invented WinRAR. Variable frame rates? Yeah, cause if it REALLY meant that much you couldn't just do the lil 120fps trick. *rolls eyes*

OGM WORKS, and that's the problem for you. Something that does what it's supposed to and does a good job of it, yeah, most people are not gonna be too eager to replace it with something else that DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO IMPROVE ON THE BASE CONCEPT. Honestly, why is this so freakin hard for you to grasp?

[Scintilla]

Sorry about stretching the page :\

Then kindly explain to me why, when I download Media Player 6.4 "for Win95 and WinNT4" and try to install it, it gives me the message "This version of Windows Media Player is not currently supported on Microsoft Windows 2000.
A version supporting Windows 2000 will be made available on www.microsoft.com at a future date."?

And if you go <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/windows/window ... p">here</a>, you'll notice that that's the only version of 6.4 available. Nowhere does it say anything about a version for Windows 2000 or XP.

So please tell me, where'd you get yours, and how'd you get it working?

[Scintilla]

You think that whether something will be mainstream has everything to do with it's technical superiority and it simply does not. I can provide countless examples of that. Whether you wanna talk about minidisc players or 100mb floppy disks or pretty much ANYTHING Sega has ever introduced, etc, etc, etc.

Hey, wait a second! I thought Zip drives and disks were pretty darn mainstream... and what about the Sega Genesis (one of which I still have, along with a whole bunch of games), eh?

[jonmartensen]

Sorry about stretching the page :\

So please tell me, where'd you get yours, and how'd you get it working?

I just went to Start>Run and typed in mplayer2.exe *shrugs*