KiSS 1600 MPG/XviD/WMV/H.264 DVD Player

Zero1 · Post by **Zero1** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:24 am

Yesterday my MPG/MPEG-4 Visual (DivX/XviD)/WMV/H.264 DVD player arrived, and I've written a sort of mini review here:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.ph ... tcount=842

I basically go over some of the features, what's in the box and what formats it handles. Now you can see your AMVs on the big screen!

Feel free to continue discussion in this thread. Also, if you want me to test your AMV on it, please give a link and I'll do so. The main highlight for me is that it plays H.264 + AAC in MP4, but a lot of the AMVs I have come across do not play unless the streams are extracted and remuxed with [this version of MP4Box, however it seems that MP4's created with Zarxrax's GUI are fine, it must have been a bad MP4Box version that people didn't realise and shared it round.[/url]

Bauzi · Post by **Bauzi** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:56 am

Awesome!

I hate it when one of the amvs don´t play on my DVD player because of the wrong DivX or XviD version. I always wanted such a player. I always wanted such a player. I guess that I´ll buy one =D

BasharOfTheAges · Post by **BasharOfTheAges** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:30 pm

That looks awesome. Any links to sites selling it? All i can seem to find through google are reviews.

Zero1 · Post by **Zero1** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:30 pm

I think it's only available in Europe at the moment, that and it was only released on the first of this month, so people need to catch up and get stocks in. I expect it to hit America soon, America is a damn big market after all.

KiSS are now in partnership with Linksys/Cisco, so look out at the places that normally stock their products. It may even be worth firing off an email to places you shop at like perhaps newegg asking them about it. Raise the awareness and let them know there is a market for it, and they'll be happy to bring some in.

Actually, I think I'll email that nice Linksys guy again and ask him if there are any plans for America.

But come on guys, I'm not seeing a lot of interest here so far, I thought this would be pretty popular with the AMV community (this is one of the reasons we use MP4 after all, for the software and hardware compatability).

Anyway, since I have it up and running (listening to #Anime-Supreme radio on it now, it wins) post some AMVs that you are curious to see if they work. I'd also like to test it out, how about linking your own AMVs for testing, or someone elses?

Formats it takes are:
MPEG-1 in MPG, VOB, TS
MPEG-2 in MPG, VOB, TS
MPEG-4 Visual (DivX 3.11, DivX 5/6, XviD) in AVI, MP4
H.264 in AVI, MP4, TS (AVI is a no no, but it supports it)
WMV7,8,9/VC-1 in WMV, possibly AVI (using the WMV VCM codec)

Which should cover like 95% of AMVs here, but I also want to check out the features used in the encode, so I need links from you guys. I will then post back with comments. You got to admit it, that's pretty nifty for a DVD player

If your AMV is in MKV, extract the streams and mux it to an MP4 using the MP4Box I provided in the first post. The command is:
mp4box -add video.264 -add audio.aac -fps 23.976 output.mp4

MP4Box takes MPEG-4 Visual (DivX, XviD), H.264 and also MP2/MP3 and AAC Audio (so if your audio is Vorbis, just convert it).

So come on guys, post some damn AMVs for me to test

NeoQuixotic · Post by **NeoQuixotic** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:02 pm

Looks interesting, but at $400+ with no HD-DVD or Blu-ray support kinda sucks. But it makes that up and more with its features. I would consider getting one if I knew that it would get proper support and be released in North America. I don't have any practical reason to need one, but I'm sure I'd have fun with it ^_^!

Zero1 · Post by **Zero1** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:23 pm

Yeah, the price isn't set in stone, and like I said, England gets really raped for tax.

Zero1 wrote:As for cost, well let's see. It's certainly cheaper than PS3 and 360, but more expensive than a Wii. Now what with how England gets raped for tax, it wouldn't be right to just say it's £200/$400, so I'll work on the price for the Wii. It costs 11% more than a Wii, so if a Wii costs $250 in the US, then adding 11% gives you around $280. However I merely speculate. It might be that the price bears no relevance but in relation to what the Wii costs here, thats what it is. Having said that, if you were to cost the Wii in USD from here, it would be $360 so it might be that Nintendo really ramped the price in Europe and the real price difference between the 1600 and a Wii is actually greater. This means the KiSS 1600 could be $300-$350; it's anyones guess really

But that really sums it up, it wouldn't be good to make assumptions about the price and forget about it, it's a nice player no doubt. Also, although HD-DVD and Bluray players support the codecs, that doesn't mean to say you will be able to pop in an MP4 disc and play it like you can on the KiSS 1600; the first couple of years, HD-DVD and Bluray players will probably be simple and locked down like the first DVD players, and then of course people will be saying they want to wait for HD-DVD and Bluray recorders; we are never satisfied

If you wanted to wait a year or two to see what the other manufacturers were doing, that's understandable (and to an extent I would suggest that), but if everyone waits and no one buys the player, no other players will be produced because they will think there is no call for it.

Scintilla · Post by **Scintilla** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:37 pm

Zero1 wrote:But come on guys, I'm not seeing a lot of interest here so far, I thought this would be pretty popular with the AMV community (this is one of the reasons we use MP4 after all, for the software and hardware compatability).

I thought the reason we used MP4 was because it properly supported x264, AAC, AC3, etc.?

Zero1 · Post by **Zero1** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:41 pm

Yeah, but it all boils down to interoperability is what I'm trying to say. MP4 properly supporting said formats leads to increased software and hardware support, if we for instance put H.264 in AVI, then it's not being stored properly, as a result software and hardware support will suffer.

As for AC3; it's not official, but it can be stored in a private stream (AC3 is stored in a private stream in VOBs for DVD too).

I for one use H.264 + AAC in MP4 because it conforms to well documented standards, that means any competant programmer can obtain copies of the spec, and write software that can decode and play my encodes. There isn't any guess work involved like how does AVI handle B-frames if it doesn't even know what B-frames are.

After all; ASP (or XviD) is properly supported in MP4, yet that didn't stop people putting it in AVI, and that's why it's taken this long until we get good, reliable hardware players, because it's non standard. We've been putting ASP in AVI since 2002 or so. I'd like to get that to change, but trying to get people who use XviD, Virtualdub and AVI to store XviD encodes in MP4 is harder than introducing H.264 + MP4. With H.264 it was somewhat seen as a clean start, but a lot of people will just take the attitude of the damage is done, why change now?

In short, H.264 + AAC in MP4 is the mainstream successor to MPEG-1/MPEG-2 + MP2 in MPG and that's saying something considering MPEG-2 has had such staying power over the years. It also seems weird that despite the popularity of ASP, it never really got anywhere, it was sort of a stepping stone between MPEG-2 and H.264. However I think part of this is due to 99% of ASP encodes being non standard and in AVI.

Qyot27 · Post by **Qyot27** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:40 pm

A couple of 720p samples here, one 29.97 and the other 59.94 (you didn't say what framerates were supported):
http://rapidshare.com/files/35676842/qy ... 7.rar.html
(previously posted; transmuxed from MKV - 11 seconds; H.264-AAC MP4)

http://rapidshare.com/files/35685158/qy ... 4.rar.html
(38 seconds; XviD-AAC MP4)

Are we supposed to list encoding settings that were used or is that something you would be checking on that end? At any rate the XviD encode is pretty close to the instructions in EADFAG, and set at Target quant 2 (I was kind of lazy and 4000kbps on 2-pass still gave me problems with artifacts). The XviD in particular has more motion to it.

Zero1 · Post by **Zero1** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:10 am

Thanks for the samples; for H.264 videos I don't need to know since I can find that out myself, but if you can post the settings for the ASP (or any other encode), that would be great (for example if GMC, QPel or Packed Bitstream were used). Also though non essential, audio and muxing settings would be great too.

Basically give as much information as you can without going to too much trouble.

Also there are no set limits on what can be decoded, that is no limits (as far as I can see) on framerate, resolution etc. All is specified is H.264 HP@L4, but also there is nothing to say that it won't play higher requirement streams, for example 720p with 16 references would be level 5, but it only increases RAM requirements and doesn't really affect CPU decoding requirements, so it may be that the player has enough RAM to play such a file. Other aspects that can push a 720p encode into level 5, such as number of consecutive B-frames or bitrate are CPU dependant (in as much as more bitrate = more CABAC work = faster CPU required), so an excessive bitrate 720p may stutter, but from what I've seen so far it's quite happy with 20mbps 1080i H.264.

It's basically a similar chipset to what you might find in HD-DVD or Bluray players. It's rated for HP@L4.0, and I believe HD-DVD and Bluray are 4.0/4.1. The only main difference between 4.0 and 4.1 is the max bitrate, for 4.0 it's 20mbps and for 4.1 it's 50mbps (IIRC). The chipset is a Sigma EM8622L. It looks as though their new chipset the SMP8630 are likely to be used in HD-DVD and Bluray. It also seems to have some "security" features, which I haven't looked into, but I guess it's just DRM related stuff and perhaps AACS and the ability to revoke stuff.

All I'm basically trying to do is get a bunch of random AMVs to play on the player and just test the support and formats. Thanks so far.