IVTC blues...

[AkabaneKuroudo]

Hi,
I've been following the Read <a href=http://www.a-m-v.org/guides/avtech31/>ErMaC & AbsoluteDestiny's Friendly AMV Guides</a> guides and so far everything has been going great. After reading the benefits I decided to IVTC before I delve into my editing, but I ran into a problem when using the avs script. My script is as follows

MPEG2Source("E:\!!RippedFootage\cowboy.d2v")
Telecide(post=false)
Decimate(5)
AssumeFPS(24)

(Just for the record, I have the AMVApp installed, Adobe Premiere Pro and the new premiere avs plugin. I've looked through the decomb document and have searched countless thread on the forums but I can't find a solution that fixes this problem.)

Alright, so as for the .avs file before any meddling with IVTC, it plays smoothly in windows media player and vdub, but when I import it into premiere I can see the seperate fields when it plays (don't know why, maybe that has something to do with my bigger problem).

After I apply the second third and fourth lines in that script (the IVTC part)the footage turns rather choppy/laggy when played in vdub or media player and practically unusable when imported into premiere. I can't edit like that and I don't think it would be smart to even try. Am I doing something wrong? This looks like the same script in Read <a href=http://www.a-m-v.org/guides/avtech31/>ErMaC & AbsoluteDestiny's Friendly AMV Guides</a> so it's gotta be something native to my system. I thought about editing with interlaced footage and not worrying about IVTC until the end but I'm afraid that when I remove it at the end my footage will suffer from the same chop/lag that it does now.

In the guide they mention that this process of IVTC before ediitng is extremely slow. What exactly are they refering to because it's a bit ambiguous to me. Do they mean the footage turns choppy/laggy? (my problem) or is it something else entirely. Also he says that method 3 is what he uses since he can't stand that slow pace of method 2, but as far as I see you still have to IVTC before cutting the clips in vdub so if it is in fact my problem how would that make for faster editing?


I don't want this to sound like I'm frowning upon the guides or anything because they are nothing short of amazing and I think there would be a lot less AMV artists out there without them but obviousy I'm extremely confused =). Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to keep trying different things on this end and hope I get it working.

[Scintilla]

Alright, so as for the .avs file before any meddling with IVTC, it plays smoothly in windows media player and vdub, but when I import it into premiere I can see the seperate fields when it plays (don't know why, maybe that has something to do with my bigger problem).

Well sure you can see the fields -- because it's still interlaced at that point. That's not a problem.

After I apply the second third and fourth lines in that script (the IVTC part)the footage turns rather choppy/laggy when played in vdub or media player and practically unusable when imported into premiere. I can't edit like that and I don't think it would be smart to even try. Am I doing something wrong? This looks like the same script in Read <a href=http://www.a-m-v.org/guides/avtech31/>ErMaC & AbsoluteDestiny's Friendly AMV Guides</a> so it's gotta be something native to my system. I thought about editing with interlaced footage and not worrying about IVTC until the end but I'm afraid that when I remove it at the end my footage will suffer from the same chop/lag that it does now.

In the guide they mention that this process of IVTC before ediitng is extremely slow. What exactly are they refering to because it's a bit ambiguous to me. Do they mean the footage turns choppy/laggy? (my problem) or is it something else entirely. Also he says that method 3 is what he uses since he can't stand that slow pace of method 2, but as far as I see you still have to IVTC before cutting the clips in vdub so if it is in fact my problem how would that make for faster editing?

The choppiness/lag you're getting has nothing to do with the actual footage. The footage is <b>fine.</b> Step through it frame-by-frame in VDubMod and you'll see.

It's a result of the fact that the CPU has to run the VOBs through more functions than it did before, and can't quite do it fast enough for to play it back smoothly.

The lag you experience when you try to play back your exports is due to the fact that your exports are full-res HuffYUV files; again, the footage itself is not at fault.

As I said, I don't think there's any way of getting around this really, short of upgrading your hardware...

[Scintilla]

Um, should have been a little clearer about one thing.

You said you worried that, if you edited interlaced and IVTC'ed or deinterlaced afterwards, your video would suffer from the same lag. What I meant to say in response to that is that it'll only lag if it's in the form of an AVISynth script that's performing the deinterlacing on it -- after you save <i>that</i> to a distribution or convention copy, it'll play back fine.

[badmartialarts]

Also, there's a really simple way to force Premiere to render it's preview files fully.

Make a white Color Matte (right click in the windew with the sorce, hit Color Matte, pick a color), and put that as the top layer in the video. Then, set the opacity to 1%. You wont notice it too much, and Premiere with have to render the workspace because it'll be annoyed by the transparency.

[AkabaneKuroudo]

Well sure you can see the fields -- because it's still interlaced at that point. That's not a problem.


right, but why can i see the fields in premiere when the interlaced footage is playing back at the normal rate? You're not supposed to be seeing them normally right?, i mean -- when you watch the dvd you don't see them, dont see em in vdub, media player etc. They are noticeable in premiere at 30 fps playback.

The lag you experience when you try to play back your exports is due to the fact that your exports are full-res HuffYUV files; again, the footage itself is not at fault.

but shouldnt this play smoothly? So you're saying after I do the final compression on it, my vid will have non lagged playback?


As I said, I don't think there's any way of getting around this really, short of upgrading your hardware...

err, I have a fairly new computer. Wouldn't this problem be a lot more common if that was the issue? Mostly everyone runs this script right?

You said you worried that, if you edited interlaced and IVTC'ed or deinterlaced afterwards, your video would suffer from the same lag. What I meant to say in response to that is that it'll only lag if it's in the form of an AVISynth script that's performing the deinterlacing on it -- after you save that to a distribution or convention copy, it'll play back fine.

you mean after I have my huffyuv file interlaced after editing and I compress it?



Sorry to keep asking all these questions. I appreciate the help


[/i][/quote]

[Scintilla]

Well sure you can see the fields -- because it's still interlaced at that point. That's not a problem.

right, but why can i see the fields in premiere when the interlaced footage is playing back at the normal rate? You're not supposed to be seeing them normally right?

Yes you are, if you're watching video on a computer monitor instead of a TV.

i mean -- when you watch the dvd you don't see them, dont see em in vdub, media player etc. They are noticeable in premiere at 30 fps playback.

Well, DVD player programs are designed to handle interlacing properly -- PowerDVD, I know, lets you choose either "no force", "force bob", or "force weave". "Force weave" is the only setting on which the scanlines are visible.

But interlacing is definitely visible in VDub and Windows Media Player. I've seen AMVs that suffer from it.

The lag you experience when you try to play back your exports is due to the fact that your exports are full-res HuffYUV files; again, the footage itself is not at fault.

but shouldnt this play smoothly?

No. You'd have to have a really powerful processor for that to happen.
Uncompressed RGB would be just as laggy, if not more so.

So you're saying after I do the final compression on it, my vid will have non lagged playback?

Yes.

As I said, I don't think there's any way of getting around this really, short of upgrading your hardware...

err, I have a fairly new computer. Wouldn't this problem be a lot more common if that was the issue? Mostly everyone runs this script right?

Well, if they don't actually <b>edit</b> with the scripts, then they won't care. Many people find editing with scripts too slow, so they make HuffYUV clips from them or use the MJPEG swap method instead. I personally don't care about the lag, perhaps because I don't mind scrubbing through clips frame by frame.

You said you worried that, if you edited interlaced and IVTC'ed or deinterlaced afterwards, your video would suffer from the same lag. What I meant to say in response to that is that it'll only lag if it's in the form of an AVISynth script that's performing the deinterlacing on it -- after you save that to a distribution or convention copy, it'll play back fine.

you mean after I have my huffyuv file interlaced after editing and I compress it?

Well, deinterlace <b>and</b> compress, but yes.

[AkabaneKuroudo]

Scintilla I can't thank you enough, you've been extremely helpful so far.

Couple more questions:

You're right I can notice the interlacing in wmp and vdub, but what I meant to say was that the fields are much more pronounced while processed in premiere compared to wmp and vdub. In other words, they really jump out at you in that program. Also the lag is worse in premiere too after IVTC (and there's even a little bit running at 30fps). So I was wondering if premiere normally does this? or if this is exclusive to my computer (and if it is, is there a way to fix this).

Also, about what I said concerning the Read <a href=http://www.a-m-v.org/guides/avtech31/>ErMaC & AbsoluteDestiny's Friendly AMV Guides</a> guide. What does ermac mean when he says method 2 is much slower. What aspect of the editing in that way is slower?

[Scintilla]

You're right I can notice the interlacing in wmp and vdub, but what I meant to say was that the fields are much more pronounced while processed in premiere compared to wmp and vdub. In other words, they really jump out at you in that program.

What size is your monitor window set to?
If it's at 50%, only one field will be displayed, so it won't look interlaced at all... which is NOT good if you're editing interlaced, because there are times you need to know which frames are combed and which aren't.
If it's at 100%, the interlacing shouldn't look any different from how it looks in anything else.
If it's at something like 75%, some of the scanlines will be blended together, making it look worse than normal.
That's the only thing I can think of.

Also the lag is worse in premiere too after IVTC (and there's even a little bit running at 30fps). So I was wondering if premiere normally does this? or if this is exclusive to my computer (and if it is, is there a way to fix this).

Yeah, lag when working with scripts in Premiere is pretty normal, even more so if you're using IVTC. See below.

Also, about what I said concerning the Read <a href=http://www.a-m-v.org/guides/avtech31/>ErMaC & AbsoluteDestiny's Friendly AMV Guides</a> guide. What does ermac mean when he says method 2 is much slower. What aspect of the editing in that way is slower?

First of all, Read <a href=http://www.a-m-v.org/guides/avtech31/>ErMaC & AbsoluteDestiny's Friendly AMV Guides</a> stands for "<b>Read</b> E&AD's Friendly AMV Guide", so it's not technically correct to call the guide by that entire acronym -- just EADFAG would be better.

Second, it was actually Absolute Destiny who wrote that page, not ErMaC.

Third, when AD said that editing with scripts is slower, he was talking about the lag involved, which is just what you're having problems with -- and get this:

This method of using footage is even slower if you use IVTC in your avisynth script to remove interlacing - by this I mean, MUCH slower.

See, he warned you.

[AkabaneKuroudo]

Hmm window is set to 100% and the comb is still more than blatant. I'm gonna try reinstalling premiere and see how that works out.

Opps, sorry ad heh, gotta give credit where credit is due.


I've been fiddling with the deinterlace filter in vdub and trying to do it that way but it doesn't seem to be working. I know some filters work, cause I tried greyscale and everything was fine, but when I use the deinterlacing filter is has no effect.

Also, I don't know if you are knowledgable about a program called VAPI Conversion, but I was trying some things I saw in various guides and I used this to create an avi file from my DVD2AVI project file. When I tried to open it in VDub it wouldn't open and fed back an error code of -2. I'm gonna keep researching on that but if you know what it means, or why it won't open that would help a lot.