Forum reorganization (give your feedback)

[Otohiko]

I actually insisted on naming it General Discussion when the issue came up, and I'll stand by it. I don't like the name "Off Topic" at all - and as much as I am nostalgic for the old OT too, I think the name itself invites uncommitted, spammy sort of stuff that may have been a problem with the old one. If you analyze the name semantically, it does invite trouble by default.

I've actually observed carefully the way other forums have dealt with this issues (including others I've moderated/moderate), and "General Discussion" or "General Topics" seems to create a more successful balance of participation and attitude from members.

[I Fight For The Users]

The sub-forum has achieved dick. The proportion of people who seem to be interested in reworking this site to those who have actually commented on the active product remains frustratingly, hugely tilted towards the former side.

Actually, now that I think about it, a better approach is to eliminate that subforum entirely, get the current product under beta.animemusicvideos.org (or something) and redirect discussion to that product's Github Issues tracker, where discussion is actually actionable.

I disagree.

The forum has obviously not "achieved dick", because my thread in that forum is what brought on this.
I agree very few people use it, but let's face it, here: the org has been "under redesign" for at least 2 - 3 years now. That forum is a good place to slap down ideas and perhaps work on them later.

Case in point - I proposed several of these changes in february. It's June now. If there was no forum, but rather a test site(if I'm reading what you say correctly), then there'd be no "look back at what other people suggested a long time a go".

While a beta site may get things done faster (rogue programmers/coders doing random sandbox shit), it would likely not get implemented simply because it wasn't done by doki (or whomever happens to be webdev now).
Not saying it wouldn't be a cool idea. Just hard to police.

Or perhaps I totally misread what you were saying, I don't know.

You not only misread what I wrote, but you have proven to me that you haven't been reading what's been going on in that forum. Which brings me back to my point of that forum doing squat: nobody's paying attention to what's going on.

"Rogue programmers doing random sandbox shit"? Have you bothered to look at the infrastructure for what I've built? Are you aware that there's a test application deployed? It's all very transparent and methodical: continuous builds, issue tracker, public source repository. Documentation is a bit on the scant side, but I'm working on that.

[I Fight For The Users]

And selectable tags? That's quite a bit of work from programmers, mods, and people (and if people fail even more work on mods). The current system works just as fine without unnecessary work from all parties involved.

If you're going to reorganize, then you first choose the best possible way, regardless of what extra work is required. That's why there's developers to augment software.

What you wrote sounds a lot like "I like the status quo, but I guess we should perpetuate the illusion that we're changing things, so let's just shuffle some rows around in the phpBB administration panel."

[I Fight For The Users]

I'd like to apologize for the previous posts, as they were unnecessary venting. I'm frustrated that the only effort so far to bring the .org somewhere new (i.e. mine) has so far been confined to a ghetto, despite support from some forum moderators.

I shouldn't be frustrated, though, because it's still moving forward, regardless of where it's stuck.

[Pwolf]

I'm frustrated that the only effort so far to bring the .org somewhere new (i.e. mine) has so far been confined to a ghetto, despite support from some forum moderators.

There really should be a larger presence on the forum for this. I think a lot of us appreciate the work you've been putting into it and if this is where the administration plans on going with the site, perhaps it should be more official.

[Arigatomina]

Which brings me back to my point of that forum doing squat: nobody's paying attention to what's going on.

Maybe if someone explained what's going on in there, a sort of "for dummies" explanation, more people would pay attention. When I look in there, I get the impression that whatever is going on is over my head, entirely theoretical playing around with a 'demo' site that might be adopted but will not be replacing the org in the near future. To me, that means it's a "for coders and web-designers only" discussion. I can assure you that I'm not the only one who gets that impression.

Once there is a final version of that test/demo site thing, and someone says something about that version being implemented here on the org (or replacing some part of the org), then I'll jump to attention. If it comes to a vote, I'll absolutely chime in my ten cents. If there is no vote, but there is some sort of "we're changing it on ___ date" then I'm sure everyone who preferred the old version (of whatever is being changed) will be paying tons of attention.

Until then, what are we supposed to do? If it's just feedback on the pictures that you want, then I think you should be glad you're not getting much. People resist change. Those pictures look big and blank and foreign, like they belong on an entirely different site. It's not the org I know, so I don't like it. But so what? New members will probably like it and they're the ones the org needs to be redesigned for, so it can compete with other "modern" sites and all that. Do what you want and share it with those who understand what you're doing. The peanut gallery members will just gripe about every little thing you do until you lose all motivation to do anything at all. You're better off not hearing from them when you're trying to work.

[SQ]

You not only misread what I wrote, but you have proven to me that you haven't been reading what's been going on in that forum. Which brings me back to my point of that forum doing squat: nobody's paying attention to what's going on.

Again, I disagree.
You're right- I don't read what's going on in that forum. The last time I posted there was in February. I posted it and I left it. Whatever my last edit in that topic was, was the last time I bothered even logging into the .org.
At that time, no new threads that I hadn't already seen had been made.

And, I thought it had been understood that the .org redesign was no longer a priority, that it probably wasn't going to be recoded, and the best we could really hope for was to post stuff, let it sit, and hope someone with power decided it was a good idea.

Not the best application for that forum, but hey, it was going somewhere. You should keep in mind that the redesign forum was created in 2010. Look at how much progress we've made.... Yeah, pretty much nothing. So it's not like the expectations have ever been high.

EDIT:
I realized I never said why I disagreed with you.
I believe the forum still holds its purpose. Just because the mods/admins/devs aren't doing anything now does not mean they will never do anything. And when they do begin to do something, at least the ideas/suggestions from years ago are still listed for everyone to see. Plus, the forum gives the issue visibility. Would you have even bothered with your beta .org if that forum had not existed? Would you have even known someone had planned to redesign the .org if the forum wasn't there?
That's my point.
You're correct in that the forum is doing a very crappy of job of what it's supposed to do. But that does not mean it should be deleted and/or hidden from view.

"Rogue programmers doing random sandbox shit"? Have you bothered to look at the infrastructure for what I've built?

At the time I posted my reply, no. But after I had read some of your other replies (before this one) I did.

Are you aware that there's a test application deployed? It's all very transparent and methodical: continuous builds, issue tracker, public source repository. Documentation is a bit on the scant side, but I'm working on that.

I am now, but I stand by my words. I'm not saying what you're doing is a bad thing: In fact, I actually think it's a great thing. unfortunately, I still think it won't be implemented for the reasons I said previously.

Now, if you can manage to get yourself on the dev team, and just plow in from there, congrats to you and I wish you well. But good luck getting to that position, because the journey to becoming a .org dev needs to be heavily reworked too.

(Also I'd like to mention I didn't mean 'shit' in a derogatory way. 'shit' just means 'stuff' to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding)

[Nya-chan Production]

Actually, now that I think about it, a better approach is to eliminate that subforum entirely, get the current product under beta.animemusicvideos.org (or something) and redirect discussion to that product's Github Issues tracker, where discussion is actually actionable.

I disagree.

The forum has obviously not "achieved dick", because my thread in that forum is what brought on this.
I agree very few people use it, but let's face it, here: the org has been "under redesign" for at least 2 - 3 years now. That forum is a good place to slap down ideas and perhaps work on them later.

Case in point - I proposed several of these changes in february. It's June now. If there was no forum, but rather a test site(if I'm reading what you say correctly), then there'd be no "look back at what other people suggested a long time a go".

While a beta site may get things done faster (rogue programmers/coders doing random sandbox shit), it would likely not get implemented simply because it wasn't done by doki (or whomever happens to be webdev now).
Not saying it wouldn't be a cool idea. Just hard to police.

Or perhaps I totally misread what you were saying, I don't know.

You not only misread what I wrote, but you have proven to me that you haven't been reading what's been going on in that forum. Which brings me back to my point of that forum doing squat: nobody's paying attention to what's going on.

"Rogue programmers doing random sandbox shit"? Have you bothered to look at the infrastructure for what I've built? Are you aware that there's a test application deployed? It's all very transparent and methodical: continuous builds, issue tracker, public source repository. Documentation is a bit on the scant side, but I'm working on that.

I'll say it like this - from idling in the channel and being around this project I have a feeling that it's actually VERY tough to get into it as in "to participate. I've done some stuff in php, not much, I admit, but this goes WAY over my head and I suppose it's the same for 99.8% users of this site. And most users don't have the will and/or time to learn such amount of tools used. Most of them don't know what "continuous builds, issue tracker, public source repository" are or how to work with it (and yes, I know those are the basics). It's maybe harsh from me, but sorry - every time you try to explain to me how easy it is I get lost after few lines where you digress into some programming stuff.
(I still have to say it looks awesome and the tech used is probably top-notch system and methodics used, but... well, I'll be honest here - I am afraid of you becoming the new Doki ^^;; )

And selectable tags? That's quite a bit of work from programmers, mods, and people (and if people fail even more work on mods). The current system works just as fine without unnecessary work from all parties involved.

If you're going to reorganize, then you first choose the best possible way, regardless of what extra work is required. That's why there's developers to augment software.

What you wrote sounds a lot like "I like the status quo, but I guess we should perpetuate the illusion that we're changing things, so let's just shuffle some rows around in the phpBB administration panel."

And I'll rephrase this - I am visiting Vegas subforum now. If it uses tags and I have to filter Vegas thread and if it will make me uselessly enter the forum (every time the post to a software that doesn't interest me is made) I won't bother visiting it at all. And I "suppose" many users visiting these subforums might see it in similar way.

[Nya-chan Production]

Which brings me back to my point of that forum doing squat: nobody's paying attention to what's going on.

Maybe if someone explained what's going on in there, a sort of "for dummies" explanation, more people would pay attention. When I look in there, I get the impression that whatever is going on is over my head, entirely theoretical playing around with a 'demo' site that might be adopted but will not be replacing the org in the near future. To me, that means it's a "for coders and web-designers only" discussion. I can assure you that I'm not the only one who gets that impression.

Once there is a final version of that test/demo site thing, and someone says something about that version being implemented here on the org (or replacing some part of the org), then I'll jump to attention. If it comes to a vote, I'll absolutely chime in my ten cents. If there is no vote, but there is some sort of "we're changing it on ___ date" then I'm sure everyone who preferred the old version (of whatever is being changed) will be paying tons of attention.

Until then, what are we supposed to do? If it's just feedback on the pictures that you want, then I think you should be glad you're not getting much. People resist change. Those pictures look big and blank and foreign, like they belong on an entirely different site. It's not the org I know, so I don't like it. But so what? New members will probably like it and they're the ones the org needs to be redesigned for, so it can compete with other "modern" sites and all that. Do what you want and share it with those who understand what you're doing. The peanut gallery members will just gripe about every little thing you do until you lose all motivation to do anything at all. You're better off not hearing from them when you're trying to work.

And this pretty much sums up my feeling about the whole demo that's up so far. I can't work with it, it's big, gray and uninviting (which is not your fault, all the "in-devel" stuff looks like that, I know), but what should we be discussing? Your edits that we don't know what they do (or we do know, but again - what can we do about them?), but are probably achieving their aims? Your merges?
We're not code reviewers and the basic structure of the demo is nowhere near the state where we can point people at it and say "what would you like to see?" or "What do you think is broken?", which is pretty much all the feedback we can get from them, IMO.

[Animegal6]

clearer instructions on how to post a video lol. I'm soooo confused still Dx