American POW vids

SSJVegita0609 · Post by **SSJVegita0609** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:46 am

sixstop wrote: Okay, for the last time, I dont understand where you guys all get off at saying this is some kind of pre-emptive strike. This is a resumption of the Gulf war from 12 years ago.

The post Gulf war treaty stated that if Iraq does not disarm itself of all weapons of mass destruction or chemical/biological origin then hostilities will immediately resume. I have seen no definative evidence of Iraq possessing such weapons and therefore this is a pre-emptive strike.

Now, I do know it is incredibily likely that Saddam DOES possess these weapons, however, before you invade a nation based on that, you need definate proof. And Powell's presentation (Watched it and read transcripts) and the bullshit the White House is spewing are NOT definitive evidence.

madmallard · Post by **madmallard** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:43 am

SSJVegita0609 wrote:
sixstop wrote: Okay, for the last time, I dont understand where you guys all get off at saying this is some kind of pre-emptive strike. This is a resumption of the Gulf war from 12 years ago.
The post Gulf war treaty stated that if Iraq does not disarm itself of all weapons of mass destruction or chemical/biological origin then hostilities will immediately resume. I have seen no definative evidence of Iraq possessing such weapons and therefore this is a pre-emptive strike.

Okay, do you know the foundation pre-requisite of that disarmament? It is that THEY bring US (the world) evidence that these wepaons, chemicals etc, have been destroyed. Not that we form a highly overworked and ineffectualy task force to search the nation for them over the cours of a decade.

They have, upon last inspection 12 years ago, and upon other countries records of selling it to him in the first place even before that, Anthrax, VX nerve, Mustard, Botulum, and who knows what else.

We're talking thousands and thousands of gallons. You cant just say "Oh yeah, we got rid of that" under the terms. it was YOU bring US proof its been destroyed. That volume of chemical material cna't just be dumped into a river on into the sand on a still winded day.

And we KNOW he has them because he HAS used them before the gulf war. Now we didn't get the chance to take them from him or destroy them ourselves in the gulf war, and he kicked the inspectors out 10 years after the gulf war. That in of itself is non-compliance.

Giton · Post by **Giton** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:47 am

However, the way you're stringing it together makes it sound like the US did NOTHING to fix what they broke, which is even more absurd than my words being mis-interpreted.

Didn't say that

Indeed they did a great job helping us getting started again and they sometimes supported us afterwards -> German reunion.
But, of course, they had their own intentions with that primary the war against communism and to stop the continental colonialism of the soviet union.
Germany was set to become the greatest battlefield in history if the cold war would have become a hot one.
Most French missiles had and still have a range that is limited to somewhere before the Polish border.
So nukes etc. would have been dropped directly on German ground...
Japan is still imoprtant to US forces, as it's next to communist countries like North Korea and US greatest rival, the Peoples Republic of China.
That only in addition.

And we wont even get into the fact that those fellows who were our biggest German scientist help to America, including the great American I mentioned before Mr Eintstein, were Jewish.

Ok,Ok - I myself consider Einstein still a German scientist, because he did most of this work and research over here.
We all know what Hitler did to Jewish people and if I was in the same situation back then, I'd have most likely been to go to the US as well.
I don't consider Einstein that great anymore because he was the leading force behind the invention of atomic bomb and it's greatest advocate.
The A-Bomb was the first weapon of mass destruction and it had horrible effects in Japan - over 200000 civilians killed in an instant and the same number over the following years.
I don't expect a scientist whom I call great to invent something like that.

Mroni · Post by **Mroni** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:24 am

Too much posting going on. But anyway germany was a half assed democracy after world war 1 setup quickly and it had a monarchist hindenburg as its head who wanted nothing to do with it. Before world war 1 germany had an emperor(kaiser) and although it had some democratic foundations the parliment etc it was used to high handedness. France at the time was on its 4th republic. Democracy failing over and over again.

Mr Oni

Mroni · Post by **Mroni** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:25 am

I do Einstein was a great scientist and The A bomb was the hammer of justice for pearl harbor.

Mr Oni

SSJVegita0609 · Post by **SSJVegita0609** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:59 am

Sixstop, you're actually incorrect. There was no documentation that Iraq had to prove to us that they'd disarmed, in fact in the actual plan the visits by the inspectors were actually presented as the most likely means of determining that they HAD in fact disarmed. And we didn't invade the country when we DID find the weapons, and now, when we CAN'T find the weapons we're invading.

Giton · Post by **Giton** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:31 pm

Too much posting going on. But anyway germany was a half assed democracy after world war 1 setup quickly and it had a monarchist hindenburg as its head who wanted nothing to do with it. Before world war 1 germany had an emperor(kaiser) and although it had some democratic foundations the parliment etc it was used to high handedness. France at the time was on its 4th republic. Democracy failing over and over again.

I didn't say something against that, you're quite right.
By the way Hindenburg wasn't really a monarchist, because he was one of the generals who took away the power from the emperor and shaped WW 1 by their own will.
When Hindenburg became president (and the president was really nothing else as an emperor, because he had almost the same powers) he was too senile to realize what was going on and allowed Hitler to do as he pleased.
At that time there were many people who wanted to reform the republic, but Hitler was faster and more successful.

The idea of democracy (apart from the ancient democracy in Athens) although was born in Europe and it were Europeans back then who founded the United States as a democracy.
You can't say we were worse democrats becasue we had to get rid of our royals first...

madmallard · Post by **madmallard** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:23 pm

SSJVegita0609 wrote:Sixstop, you're actually incorrect. There was no documentation that Iraq had to prove to us that they'd disarmed, in fact in the actual plan the visits by the inspectors were actually presented as the most likely means of determining that they HAD in fact disarmed. And we didn't invade the country when we DID find the weapons, and now, when we CAN'T find the weapons we're invading.

as taken from UN resolution 687, sub sections 7, 8, and 9a: wrote: 7. Invites Iraq to reaffirm unconditionally its obligations under the Geneva Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or Other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, signed at Geneva on 17 June 1925, and to ratify the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on Their Destruction, of 10 April 1972;

8. Decides that Iraq shall unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless, under international supervision, of:

(a) All chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities;

(b) All ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometres and related major parts, and repair and production facilities;

9. Decides, for the implementation of paragraph 8 above, the following:

(a) Iraq shall submit to the Secretary-General, within fifteen days of the adoption of the present resolution, a declaration of the locations, amounts and types of all items specified in paragraph 8 and agree to urgent, on-site inspection as specified below

source:
http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm

SSJVegita0609 · Post by **SSJVegita0609** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:38 pm

sixstop wrote:
SSJVegita0609 wrote:Sixstop, you're actually incorrect. There was no documentation that Iraq had to prove to us that they'd disarmed, in fact in the actual plan the visits by the inspectors were actually presented as the most likely means of determining that they HAD in fact disarmed. And we didn't invade the country when we DID find the weapons, and now, when we CAN'T find the weapons we're invading.

as taken from UN resolution 687, sub sections 7, 8, and 9a: wrote: 7. Invites Iraq to reaffirm unconditionally its obligations under the Geneva Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or Other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, signed at Geneva on 17 June 1925, and to ratify the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on Their Destruction, of 10 April 1972;

8. Decides that Iraq shall unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless, under international supervision, of:

(a) All chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities;

(b) All ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometres and related major parts, and repair and production facilities;

9. Decides, for the implementation of paragraph 8 above, the following:

(a) Iraq shall submit to the Secretary-General, within fifteen days of the adoption of the present resolution, a declaration of the locations, amounts and types of all items specified in paragraph 8 and agree to urgent, on-site inspection as specified below
source:
http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm

I apologise, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant that the Iraqi government had to produce weapons to be destroyed publically. I didn't see what you were saying, and that's my fault.

However, currently the Iraqi government has consistantly denied possessing these weapons, and we've still yet to find proof of their existance that justifies the conflict. In the past we HAVE found there to be weapons of mass destruction/biological warfare, and the previous UN inspectors had those programs shut down (maybe inadequately, but still shut down). We have still before this current conflict, NOT found any weapons, and the Iraqi government, however untrustworthy, denies having them.

kthulhu · Post by **kthulhu** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:55 pm

Giton wrote:Ok,Ok - I myself consider Einstein still a German scientist, because he did most of this work and research over here.
We all know what Hitler did to Jewish people and if I was in the same situation back then, I'd have most likely been to go to the US as well.
I don't consider Einstein that great anymore because he was the leading force behind the invention of atomic bomb and it's greatest advocate.

Einstein was somewhat <a href="http://www.doug-long.com/einstein.htm">conflicted about the atomic bomb</a>. He was not an actual researcher of it, but his work helped in the development. He did encourage the Allies to create it, lest the Nazi government <a href="http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/at ... 2.html">do it first</a>. It was a lesser of the two evils situation, and it is a good thing Nazi Germany didn't have an operating nuke - they probably could've rigged up their V2 rockets to do some hellish damage.

Giton wrote:The A-Bomb was the first weapon of mass destruction and it had horrible effects in Japan - over 200000 civilians killed in an instant and the same number over the following years.
I don't expect a scientist whom I call great to invent something like that.

So you're willing to write off Einstein and his other scientific contributions, all because you don't like the A-bomb, something that he didn't even contribute help to? Seems rather narrow minded.