religon yes or no

Warpwind · Post by **Warpwind** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:32 pm

I just thought I would stand up and say...
"I believe in God!"

Yes that means I am a Christian (of course the way I phrased it could also mean I subscribe to any religon which calls their divine deity "god" but I'll ask you to overlook that). I was not born into a christian community so the choice was entirely my own and I have researched/looked at other religons just for curiosity's sake. I am also interested in what Tab has been saying and as I know some of the facts he presented were correct I will assume most of it was. Of course I can't think of any religon that hasn't been tainted by the actions of it's followers. Let's face it we are all human after all.

Someone mentioned that their faith was strong engough for them to poke holes in it themselves (sorry can't remember who but it took me ages to read this thread and I don't want to go through it again) but I agree with you.

I'll leave my veiws on evolution to the other thread... but suffice to say I am a scientist and while there is a wealth of evidence for evolution it remains like most things in science only a theory.

Homosexuality is defined in the bible as a sin. However there are many contradictions and things in the bible that I don't whole-heartedly agree with. I remeber reading somewhere (dueteronmony I think) that if a women was menstrating she had to sacrifice two birds before she was allowed in church or something pathetic like that. Because I am a christian doesn't mean that I believe the bible is the be all and end all of everything. After all it was written by people, fellow believers motivated by God yes, but still people who are by nature falible. Anyway reguardless of if you believe homosexuality is a sin or not... ultimately you as a christian should love the sinner and hate the sin. Thus in my mind christianity is no excuse for homophobia nor as an excuse to insult and hurt people in any way.

Anyway a question that came up in a bible study I had last night...
If Jesus is the only way to God and the only way our sins can be forgiven then were people redeemed before the existance of Jesus? If Jesus' sacrifice provided the only way to Heaven was everyone that believed before his birth NOT in heaven? Did Moses and Elijah and the prophets of the old teastament go to heaven before Jesus came to Earth?

I am curious to know peoples responses to this... be they atheists, agnostics, christians, jews, muslims... etc

azulmagia · Post by **azulmagia** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:49 pm

Warpwind wrote:

I remeber reading somewhere (dueteronmony I think) that if a women was menstrating she had to sacrifice two birds before she was allowed in church or something pathetic like that.

Wow.

Warpwind, you wouldn't know the exact chapter/verse for that? I actually keep a list of wacky citations and it appears I missed that one.

Trident · Post by **Trident** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:59 pm

Anyway a question that came up in a bible study I had last night...
If Jesus is the only way to God and the only way our sins can be forgiven then were people redeemed before the existance of Jesus? If Jesus' sacrifice provided the only way to Heaven was everyone that believed before his birth NOT in heaven? Did Moses and Elijah and the prophets of the old teastament go to heaven before Jesus came to Earth?

The whole point of the Old Testament sacrifice system was to look forward to Christ's ultimate sacrifice. That's why there were so many regulations about why lambs had to be pure and spotless, and that's why Jesus is sometimes referred to as the "Lamb of God." And no, even of the best of the Hebrews couldn't fulfill every requirement--heck, Moses was specifically forbidden from entering the Promised Land because he sinned at one point. It's one of those things where it's pretty much the thought that counts... it's the attitude of the heart which matters most to God. Even if an Israelite failed to make a necessary sacrifice once or twice in his life, if he truly loved God then he's going to Heaven. On the other side, an Israelite could make every single sacrifice, but if he didn't do it out of a love for God, then he's probably not going to Heaven. As is stated in the Psalms, God says that "I require obedience and not a sacrifice" (that's the New Trident Paraphrase Edition, by the way).

Anyway, that's my perspective on it, and I think I have the scripture to back it up. If anyone really needs me to, I can do said research.

Warpwind · Post by **Warpwind** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:15 pm

Trident wrote:
Anyway a question that came up in a bible study I had last night...
If Jesus is the only way to God and the only way our sins can be forgiven then were people redeemed before the existance of Jesus? If Jesus' sacrifice provided the only way to Heaven was everyone that believed before his birth NOT in heaven? Did Moses and Elijah and the prophets of the old teastament go to heaven before Jesus came to Earth?
The whole point of the Old Testament sacrifice system was to look forward to Christ's ultimate sacrifice. That's why there were so many regulations about why lambs had to be pure and spotless, and that's why Jesus is sometimes referred to as the "Lamb of God." And no, even of the best of the Hebrews couldn't fulfill every requirement--heck, Moses was specifically forbidden from entering the Promised Land because he sinned at one point. It's one of those things where it's pretty much the thought that counts... it's the attitude of the heart which matters most to God. Even if an Israelite failed to make a necessary sacrifice once or twice in his life, if he truly loved God then he's going to Heaven. On the other side, an Israelite could make every single sacrifice, but if he didn't do it out of a love for God, then he's probably not going to Heaven. As is stated in the Psalms, God says that "I require obedience and not a sacrifice" (that's the New Trident Paraphrase Edition, by the way).

Anyway, that's my perspective on it, and I think I have the scripture to back it up. If anyone really needs me to, I can do said research.

Yes but did they go to heaven (if they deserved to) straight after death or did they only go to heaven after Christ desended to death/hell (depends on translation) and then ascended to heaven thus providing them a path.
Although I believe certian prophets were taken straight up to heaven even forgoing death.

azulmagia wrote:Wow.

Warpwind, you wouldn't know the exact chapter/verse for that? I actually keep a list of wacky citations and it appears I missed that one.

I'll have a look and see if I can find it again later.

Trident · Post by **Trident** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:08 pm

Although I believe certian prophets were taken straight up to heaven even forgoing death.

There are two that I know of--Enoch, who lived prior to Noah, and Elijah.

There's a passage in Revalation that says something about the martyrs:

Rev. 6:9 (New American Standard Translation) "When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they maintained..."

I'm not sure if that specifically refers to tribulation martyrs or not, though. Revalation is an odd book. Personally I'm inclined to say that everyone who dies "goes to sleep" until either the Rapture (when Christ comes back and takes away the believers: "And the dead in Christ will rise") or until the Judgment, when all dead rise. Though, to be honest, I don't think it matters all that much. If you're asking if all people who died prior to Christ went to Hell, even if only for a short period, then no, I don't think so. I could dig into this, but I have bizarre theology that would probably bore people not into Christianity...

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:06 pm

Science Has No Idea How the Universe Works: Last week at a University of Chicago conference, cosmologists mapped out plans to attempt to locate "dark matter" and "dark energy." I don't wish to alarm you, but at least 90 percent of the universe is missing. Astronomers hope to find it.

When cosmologists measure the gravitational attraction on heavenly bodies, at least two-thirds of the matter in the cosmos appears to be missing; stars move as if acted upon by more gravity than can be accounted for by observed amounts of normal matter. For years, this has led to speculation that there is "dark matter" or "missing mass" throughout the firmament -- perhaps as strange forms of subatomic particles not present in this solar system, perhaps as very heavy black holes, perhaps as huge numbers of almost-stars hard to see because they don't shine. There are other theories. Searching for the missing mass has for decades been an obsession of astrophysicists.

Then, a few years ago, astronomers made the unexpected discovery that not only are the galaxies rushing away from each other, they are speeding up. It had been assumed that the Big Bang provided the impetus for the movement of the galaxies; and across the eons, momentum from the Bang would wear off, causing the galaxies to slow down. Instead, they're speeding up: the evidence looks solid. Cosmic acceleration cannot be happening unless something unseen is pushing on the galaxies -- that is, adding energy to them. Hence, dark energy.

The new betting line among scientists is that the luminous, observable forms of energy in the universe -- shining stars, natural radio waves and X-rays and so on -- constitute only a small share of total energy. Some force much more potent, dark energy, carries most of the power in creation; dark energy has so much power that it's speeding up unfathomable numbers of galaxies across unfathomable distances. The existence of dark energy would answer the riddle of why gravity does not cause everything in creation to crush together: Dark energy is repelling the components of the universe at the same time that gravity attracts them. And it's looking like dark energy is stronger than gravity --stronger, perhaps, by orders of magnitude.

Here's the rub. While there are theories about what dark matter might be, no one has the slightest clue what dark energy is. No instrument can detect it. No one knows its source or how it works. Dark energy appears strong enough to push the entire universe, and yet science can't locate it.

Bear this in mind when you're tempted to think Homo sapiens already understands the physical world, or even has the slightest idea what's going on. Combining missing dark matter and missing dark energy, science can't locate 90 percent of the universe! Bear this in mind, as well, when you're tempted to think we "know" there is no nonmaterial realm. An energy strong enough to push the entire universe is pulsing through your body right now, yet science has no idea how it works or where it originates. How many other nonmaterial forces might there be?

As for the University of Chicago conference, hope you didn't miss this session: "APEX-SZ, a Millimeter-Wavelength Galaxy Cluster Survey Using the Sunyaev-Zel'dovich Effect."

There's God (in my understanding) right there, or at least something similar. Something that is there, that is silent and intangible, that is a form of energy, that is vital to the existence of the universe, yet unknown to us.

You can check my original views on God on page 1 (1st response to thread).

Science loves me.

***

err.... something tells me I shouldn't have brought this damn thread back up.

Tab. · Post by **Tab.** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:48 pm

Pretty cool. Perhaps dark matter is really the ether/akasa. It'd be a shame if science discovered there was more than just physical 'matter' out there.

Science is starting to catch up with ancient knowledge.

Lyrs · Post by **Lyrs** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:03 pm

science already does suspect more then just "matter" out there. some call it dark matter. and then there is dark energy, which is another whole realm to itself.

El Banana · Post by **El Banana** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:30 pm

RRRRIIIIIIP!!!!

Jim Hawkings21122 · Post by **Jim Hawkings21122** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:50 pm

Religon is a funny thing.........