Bush's anouncement

[Ingow]

I`m german.
Currently we don`t need oil so we`re not really taking part, sorry mr.bush
(This post is sponsored by Cuba and Libya)

[Nightowl]

This is like if you saw a teenage boy building pipe bombs in his garage. You haven't seen him use them. But is it not your responsibility to report him BEFORE they get used?

The problem with this argument is that when the teenage boy is reported, that's all that has happened. The cops MIGHT come, but there is nothing they can do, as he's doing it on his own property. As long as he doesn't hurt others, it's perfectly legal. It is our responsibility to report, but it isn't our responsibility to kill the child before he uses them. That would be illegal, no matter his intent. Innocent until proven guilty, and there is no proof. You would never know whether or not he was going to actually use the pipe bombs - and in a court of law, you would go to jail for acting against him.

In the case of the US and Iraq, no one else is willing to police them, so we have to be the ones to do it. We've given Iraq 12 damn years to clean up their act. I'd say we've been pretty damned patient.

I do not agree with war. This is true. I believe in isolationism. This is also true. But... I do believe that Sadam should be stopped. He is breaking the law and that's not right. If one person isn't affected by the law, then no one is... then we have chaos. Then we have troublemakers in the world that no longer listen to reason. Decisions such as war are not easy... and I do believe almost all of what has happened could have been handled better. But we do have a person in the world who has broken the law, and will continue doing so. SOMETHING needs to be done, and as far as I can tell, no one else is willing to do it... it just isn't right. But then, nothing in this world really is...

Buuuut! If we isolate ourselves from the rest of the world...we get no more anime! >___<

I do believe in isolationism - but I'm also American, so capitalism is my top priority! Free trade, import/export - these are still important! So in my little utopia, we would still have anime, and no one would hate us for where we were born. What can I say? I'm an idealist AND an isolationist! With so many people flat out for/against this war - war or peace, and that's it - it would be nice to have some more open-minded people who try to get everyone to get along and have no one die while at the same time the law isn't broken.

As I said, I'm an idealist, et. al...

-N

[buddykiller]

bah, i for one don't support bush one fucking bit, he's going to fuck up big time, i'm sure i'm not the only one that can see a fucking world war evolving from this and note that i havn't read everybodies post yet so i don't know if what i'm saying has been said... for one the economy is going to suffer because people arn't going to be able to afford the fucking drive to work i see gas prices sky rocketing to over 3 bucks per gallon so yea, nobody's gonna be able to work unless everybody gets a pay raise which i don't see in the near future................ fuck this war, fuck our president....

[Nightowl]

for one the economy is going to suffer because people arn't going to be able to afford the fucking drive to work i see gas prices sky rocketing to over 3 bucks per gallon so yea, nobody's gonna be able to work unless everybody gets a pay raise which i don't see in the near future

Just so you know, prices in Britain are, if I'm not mistaken, close to $5/gallon (yes they use pounds and litres, this is a rough estimate), and they make it to work everyday... I don't think the entire country has collapsed just yet... That, and there's public transportation, carpools, walking, bicycles... it'll be harder, but it has been worse in the past.

Just stating the facts and aproximations, bk : ) I still like ya!

-N

[OtakuOutpost]

I do not agree with our motives for going into this war.

That being said, it appears that war is immenent. We are locked into this course of action and must now ride it out. I support our troops. I wish them a speedy victory and pray for their safe return.

--Tony

[Lyrs]

let's go to war, reduce the human population, and add more co2 to the atmosphere.

it's all in an administrations term of work.

/end

[Ashton]

I've been listening to BBC radio over the internet all morning. The British (amazingly) seem to be, by and large, in support of the US. Even those that disagree don't hate the US, they just disagree with the conflict, which was not the impression that I was given.
Yeah, I'm actually still listening to it, it's their House of Commons having an emergency meeting. Tell me, all you brits out there, what do you guys think?

[MCWagner]

I just know I'm gonna regret this...ah well. Free speech and all that.

Before I go ahead and say what I'm going to say, I'd like to mention I hate war. I'd like to say I'm against this "possible" war. I don't believe in Bush and I am actually terrified of him. Any PRESIDENT who says that we should put more faith in "the lord" than our own government is just frightening.

Yeah, one of my misgivings about Bush as well. Personally, I think it's mostly an "appeal to the constituancy" soundbite in his speeches, and not representative of actual decision making. I don't know that, though, and weigh every decision in my own mind.

That being said, do any of you know why we're going against Iraq? Yes, on the surface, it seems that we're going after the wrong guy in order to get the right guy. The thing is, we've either killed or have in custody all the right guys from 9/11. And we more than likely won't see a retalliation anytime soon because, as Bill Maher so elequently put it, "They live in FUCKING CAVES." They aren't going to be firing missles. Hussein, on the other hand, has that possibility.

The fact that Saddam has the CHANCE to fire anything at us is why we're going to war. Now, yes, many other countries have the chance to fire missles, but Iraq is the ONLY one that signed an AGREEMENT saying that he would remove ALL WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Including missles and elements of chemical warfare. This agreement was signed twelve years ago after the Gulf War. He still hasn't followed through, based on UN regulations.

THANK YOU. Don't disregard the other 17 UN resolutions passed down on Iraq either. The one that pisses me off the most is #688. The one that says "stop torturing your own people." In my opinion, that's something one shouldn't issue a "warning" about. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 07,00.html

All this being said, these are my personal thoughts: I'm an isolationist. A shut-in if you will. I say pull out of the entire world. I say fuck em. Everyone hates America, I don't care, hate me all you want. I believe we should keep to ourselves completely. Be nice to other countries, still deal with import/export. Trade is all good, no one has a problem with that. I don't care about anything we've signed allowing us to sit our Freedom Fries asses on someone's fucking backyard. GET OUT. Come back home and sit here. Let the rest of the world sort its problems out. When THEY bring the war to US, THEN get all aggressive. I mean, for christ's sake, we have a law in our own country that says if someone hits someone else first, they are liable and should be arrested! Is that not what we're about to do?! All this while North Korea is a bigger threat than anyone... none of it makes sense. So I'm an isolationist, leave the rest of the world alone.

We also have a law in this country that prohibits convicted felons from owning firearms. And when they do buy firearms, we're supposed to arrest them. Saddam lost the benefit of the doubt when he invaded Kuwait. (Just showing that analogies can cut both ways. There's very little meaning behind them.)

I really do understand your position, I just don't agree with it. I don't like the idea of the US being the world's cop. That job was supposed to fall to the UN. But the UN doesn't work. There've been something on the order of 39 wars conducted by members of the UN since it's creation. Only three of those had UN sanction. The overthrow of Pol Pot's blood-soaked regime was ended without UN approval, for example.

So if there's to be a cop, the US, and/or a coalition it forms, are the only ones capable. (Much of the EU hasn't modernized their armies since WWII, Russia is having trouble holding itself together, and China...sure as hell wouldn't want THEM on watch.) Why does there have to be a cop, though? Well, there doesn't. But remember exactly what you're condemming tens of thousands of people to in a world where genocidal, dictatorial regiems face no reprecussions. Starvation in incompetently-run countries (Zimbabwe). Genocide via jihad (Sudan), ethnic cleansing (Rawanda), or testing of chemical weapons (Iraq), torture and execution of political opponents (too numerous to mention). I, for one, actually believe that it's self evident that ALL MEN are created equal....etc., so I support helping prevent these atrocities when we can.

So why Iraq? A) It's been flouting UN resolutions for as long as it could, and kicked out the previous set of inspectors. It took a quarter million soldiers sitting on the border to get this latest set in. B) It's been killing it's own people in bouts of ethnic cleansing for as long as Saddam has been in power. C) It's one of those few situations where one action stands a chance of improving the situation massively. (This is another reason why NKorea is being treated so differently.) D) The situation is threatening to become much MUCH worse if it's left alone. E) It should be relatively simple, as wars go. Hell, Iraqi troops surrendered last week to a group of British paratroopers doing a live-fire exercise. (Had to be sent back. Not allowed to take prisoners before the war starts.) F) On a personal note, the US holds some responsibility for conditions as they exist in Iraq today...because we LEFT HIM THERE. The bastard lost a war of agression against a neighbor. We knew the way he ran his country, and, because of political pressure from the UN, we let him stay. On at least one level, this is us cleaning up a mess we shouldn't have let start.

I'm not in favor of the US becoming the world's cop exclusively. But when the situation is so plain, the advantages so evident, and the existing "world cop" system so rife with political back-scratching, we'd be more at fault for not doing something than for at least trying.

Hokay, my position. I have misgivings about the reasons we're being given for this war. Misgivings, not objections. What I do agree with is the stated ends (removal of Saddam and his sons, and the ferreting out of all the weapons he ain't supposed to have) and I agree that war is the only means towards this end that stands any chance of success. People keep forgetting that the "weapons inspectors" are just inspectors, not a disarmament force. Their only job was to go in and confirm whether or not Saddam was obeying the treaty he signed. (You know, the one that let him remain the despot of Iraq after he got kicked out of Kuwait.) The answer? No. It's ALWAYS been No. Now we've got like five or six different examples. OK, job done, get out, the tanks are coming.

I hope for a brief, relatively bloodless conflict, (To all the hyperventilaters: The use of nuclear arms isn't even in consideration.) followed by full disclosure of all information gathered from the Iraqi files. Then institution of an occupational government for rebuilding and restructuring that leaves quickly (18 mo, max) when the country is capable of self-government. As soon as there's any sign of deviation from this plan, I'll start objecting. Until that happens, this war has my support.

War should always be the last resort. The trick is in knowing when all other resorts will fail.

[Ashton]

mr.bush

I have to make a point of this, because it's a matter of respect. No matter what you think of the guy, you really shouldn't call him "Mr. Bush" (especially since oyu didn't use caps) because he is the president. Likewise, he shouldn't simply be called "Bush" either, since that's equally wrong. I think we all need to take a chill pill and give the guy at least the TITLE he rightly earned! His name is George Bush, or President Bush, the same way that you should refer to those with PHDs as Doctor ****.
[/stupid rant]

[OtakuOutpost]

I've been listening to BBC radio over the internet all morning. The British (amazingly) seem to be, by and large, in support of the US. Even those that disagree don't hate the US, they just disagree with the conflict, which was not the impression that I was given.
Yeah, I'm actually still listening to it, it's their House of Commons having an emergency meeting. Tell me, all you brits out there, what do you guys think?

I've spoken to a few Brittish citizens. They seem pretty adamant for peace, but there is little anti-US sentiment. They feel the war is pointless. They place the blame for the US agression on President Bush, not our country or it's citizens.

The French, Germans, and Russians don't hate us either. They just have more to gain from Saddam being in power than not. They oppose the premptive strike policy we have taken, but they won't stand in our way. They are just making a political statement that they will not suppost the US against Iraq. Nobody beleives Saddam is a great guy and nobody is going to defend him for who he is. They are not declaring themselves our enemy.

The only people who are truely anit-US are the fundamentalist Islamists who want all the US and Israeli presence removed from thier holy soil. Even they don't like Saddam, but being he is Islamic they will defend him against the infidels. They are a proud people.

--Tony