Too much car tech for one corporation...

[Toecutter]

Greetings from the GoatMan!

For those of you inquiring as to why I call myself that, it's because my first car was a '68 Pontiac GTO, with the naturally aspirated 400 cid big block, TH-400 3 speed tranny, and a '70 GTO posi-equipped rear end.

Being a Pontiac/Buick/Oldsmobile fan, I'm absolutely thrilled the GTO will be coming back for it's 40th Anniversary. However, I'm pissed off GM refused to work out a new design, and just modified the Australian GM Holden Monaro coupe to meet EPA and crash safety requirements. At least the new GTO will be using the Generation III small block Chevy V8 (for those not in the know, the LS1 V8, as used in the '97-'02 Chevy Camaro/Pontiac Firebird).

However, Pontiac/Buick/Oldsmobile have had a cheaper, more fuel-efficient performance package on the street for over two decades. In 1979, Buick introduced a turbocharged 3.8L V6, and put it in the Regal, making the first Turbo Regal. By 1984, Buick split the T-body production of Regals into the standard/Turbo Regals, and the high-performance T-body, known as the Grand National. The 3.8L V6 in it's strongest form (1987, in only 541 produced Grand National GNX's) put out 330 ft-lbs of torque, and about 280 hp. The engine combination was so successful, it was used in the 1989 Pontiac Trans-Am Indy 500 Pace Car. The funny part, of course, is the fact the turbo 3.8L V6 put out 40 more horsepower than the '92 L98 (TPI fuel-injected 350 small-block Chevy) V8.

Those of you who are paying attention in the domestic car market will note GM is still using the 3.8L V6, now called the 3800 V6. Unlike the Grand National, the performance 3800 uses a supercharger, which has no boost delay. Pontiac and Buick are still using this engine combination in the Le Sabre, Pontiac Grand Prix, and there's a special Performance Package Grand Prix coming out next year. That will be a beast, that could easily keep pace with anything short of a Corvette.

Of course, Ford is suffering from the same "modify the existing hardware" syndrome, using the Ford Mustang. The standard and GT's are just crap, and they're following in the lousy tradition of the Camaro and Firebird, equipping them with stanard in-line-four or V6 motors, with the 4.6L SOHC V8 as an option.

The real performance Mustangs are the SVT's, such as the special edition Bullitt Mustang, the Cobra-R, and the Saleen, which use a DOHC 4.6L V8 (the Cobra-R uses a supercharger for added hp and torque).

Anyone have any info on Mopar performance coming? With the introduction of the new 5.7L Hemi for the Dodge Ram, Daimler-Chrysler better find a decent muslcecar platform to stay up to speed with the competition. Perhaps they can bring back the Charger, or the Road Runner Superbird (two classic musclecars known for the 426 Hemi option).

[dwb]

goat. havent heard that used in a while. i had a 67 gto was sweet as fuck. had to sell it though insurance cost more then the car did. i put a v-10 in mine lol. cant remember the ci though. i agree with the "new" gto being ugly as hell. it will have power but i dunno if it'll hold true to the badge its wearing. kindof like the imapla ss's that are coming out. the old 94-96 were badass. i am also excited about the new pontiac gtp with the paddle shifters on the sterring wheel and a superchager. sweet. ford is also building the gt40. which really is going to be a gt44 cause of crash rating and shit. in my opinion mustangs are the new civics. there everywhere. ford built mustang to compete with vette's but now they cant compete with much of anything. mopar is supposidly putting a hemi in the new 300N, and making it rwd. not much of a muscle car though. unless your building it yourself the muscle car making days seem to be over unless your buying one from small company. shelby is making cars still. cant drive them if your in cali still i think. dodge has the viper too. maybe they might make a hemi engine for it. if it was me i would say screw massed produced and buy a 427 cobra kit. there usually around 10k u could prob get one built and everything like that for less then 20k and with some tweaking run with the zo6's

Dale

[Toecutter]

I know if I had the money, I'd get my hands on a '75-'82 T-top Corvette, and throw in the ZL1 427 with the new Edelbrock Pro-Flo EFI system (because I hate dealing with manual and electric chokes on V8s). I'd throw in a Borg-Warner T56 six-speed tranny, true dual-exhaust (naturally) with the pipes coming out just 4" in front of the rear wheels, B&M transmission/engine oil coolers, a 12-bolt Chevy rear-end with an Eaton posi (a non C-clip version), and a Goodmark replacement hood with a functional L88 hood scoop.

Of course, I still have a fetish for the Pontiac/Olds 400 big block.

[madmallard]

you know, there is a bunch of garbage, junk, and trash cars coming out calling themselves by various models. . . SS anything, Thunderbird, etc etc. . .

I blame volkswagen and the new ugly beetle for this "MEE TOOO!" trend in the automotive industry.

why cant we get cheap cars that are fun to drive? Thats what most of these old muscle cars and small block powerhouses were to begin with. Cheap. The Mustang's primary customer were working women when they first came out because it was cute, available auto, and was still cheap.

look what we have now. Kia. . .hyundai. . .cavalier, and focus. . .saturn. . .

I'll give props to hyundai, despite being rice, they have shown a consistant path of design improvement, using germany as a engineering model for the scoupe/tiburon. (unlike ford which has been milking the same mustang frame since the 80s along with most of its components)

And GM is an embarassment with the cavalier/sunfire. What a joke of a car. And the new impala? Why oh why did they ditch the ultra awesome 96 platfor rear wheel vehicle! Not only was it a cool car, with superior stock handling, but it also stood a great chance to kick out the ford crown vic as the de-facto cop car!! lets not forget the monte carlo/lumina frame. . .ugh. .

As people trend towards trucks and SUVs, regular car design has taken a backseat since the early 90's and probably before that.

and ford. . .the escort/focus frame? Built in mexico? popular in europe for some reason. . .and that thunderbird belongs with the beetle, yeesh. Although, if ford does put through this new mustang prototype and its even 70% like it, hooo boy will it be nice. . .too bad it will STILL be too expensive. . .

and mopar, mopar mopar. . . too bad the prowler and viper designers dont get ahold of the rest of the cars. i WANT to like the intrepid. . .but its not rear wheeled. . .maybe if dodge stops letting mitsubishi do their budget engineering they would stop having quality problems. The SRT-4? those fall apart like every other neon i've seen. the 300m tho. . .thats a step in the right direction. . .but STILLL TOO @#*($&# EXPENSIVE.

the foreign market, particularly honda, nissan, and now hyundai (since the tiburon went 6cyl), are really getting you your best bang for the $$$ in driving fun. sure there are better cars, and sports cars, but who can afford them anymore. . . .

[kthulhu]

The Impala's been fucked since they got rid of the Caprice and the authoritative boxy design of the late 1970s-1990 versions.

<a href="http://www.prn.ee/ajuvant/wallpaper/77cap.jpg">Yes</a>.

They should remake the square Impala, and use newer materials and engine tech to increase fuel efficiency.

And that's my uneducated opinion.

[TheRealNeoHentaiMaster]

I am continually astounded by how little attention the 2003 Cobra seems to get. I mean, this car is fucking amazing for its price. A custom hand built 390 HP engine, does 0 to 60 in 4.9 seconds STOCK. This is before any kind of suping up. For about 1500 dollars, you can get the engine up to around 500 HP, and this is withouth anything complicated. No dangerious shit like Nos either. This brings the total price of the car up to slightly under 40k. 40k for a car that can smoke pretty much anything else within tripple its price range. There is like no down side to this car, but not that many people seem interested in them. Depending on where you live, it can be tough to even find a dealership since not all Ford dealerships sell SVT models. Ive read up on this car and I have yet to find one article that points out any signifigant problem with this car. The only complaints ive ever heard is that the suspension isnt has good has say an M3, and that the interior could use a little more considering its almost identical to that of a normal GT. Even in this thread, people are ignoring it, talking about the Cobra R, which the 2003 easliy out does, with a smaller engine and more comfort. And personally I think the 03 looks better too. Anyway, I was just wondering why this car doesnt seem to the get the attention it deserves.

[madmallard]

hmm. . .

lets start with the crumby a-typical ford interior quality, or lack thereof. why do you have to goto lincoln to get anything aesthetically pleasing from ford?

lets also talk about the ancient suspension and frame its been using which has FINALLY been retired. . . The only reason it out handles the camaro frame(equally old) is its better weight distribution and slightly shorter body. Yet its still way too heavy for what it is.

let us also note the subaru wrx stock gets around 5.7 at 0-60mph costing 24,000. alot less. then add that 1500 in mods, ditch the cats and you drop down to 5 flat.

Or the Mitsu EVO8 for 28,000 or Subaru STI for 30,000 . . .both are 4.7~5 seconds on the 0-60; and gobs cheaper than the cobra, offer 4 doors, awd, etc etc etc. . .

maybe if the base car wasn't so bad the buildup might get more attention. . .but its still overpriced. .

[Toecutter]

What's really pathetic are all the riced-out '94-'02 Mustangs out there. I've seen them with the crappy aluminum wings (which you don't need, unless you're doing over 170 mph), and what I call the "rape pipes" (the 3" exhaust tips, which are only any good if you want to get intimate with your exhaust system).

Anything can be built into a performance car, but the trick is to know the engine's powerband, and modify around that. For example, I have this great plan to modify an '88-'93 Dodge Dynasty/Chrysler New Yorker with the incredibly reliable 2.5L TBI L4. This thing puts out 147 ft-lbs @ 2800 rpm stock. Granted, the 2.5L is a stroked version of the 2.2L with shorter piston, which makes performance modifications almost impossible. However, some basic bolt-on hardware (home-made ram air induction, MSD Blaster coil, Bosch Platinum +4 spark plugs, Dodge Caravan dual-fan assembly, and some underdrive pulleys), and you could shave off at least 20 hp from inefficiency (friction, engine heat, voltage drop in the ignition system, parasitic accessory drives, etc). Throw in a Flowmaster cat-back exhaust system of 2.5" mandrel-bent pipe, ensuring the same diameter pipe is maintained from the exhaust manifold on back (to avoid performance loss by increasing/decreasing backpressure), and you've got another 10-20 hp.

Why modify a crappy grandma car? There are three primary reasons:

1. Dodge Dynasties are dirt cheap. A typical Dodge Dynasty with less than 90k miles costs about $1500-$2000. The parts are usually in stock at any decent Napa Auto Parts (I don't use Schmuck's, except for fancy crap like switches or spark plugs). Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth dealerships should be able to order replacement interior parts for cheap.

2. Dodge Dynasties have cross-platform compatibility. Since Dodge Caravans/Plymouth Voyagers have the same engines (2.5L L4, 3.0 Mitsubishi, and the 3.3L V6), using the larger throttle bodies, manifolds, and dual-fan assembly from the mini-vans would be incredibly easy to swap. As for better handling/braking, the Chrysler New Yorker comes stock with all wheel disc brakes, using the same rear-axle and panhard bar as the Dynasty. Swapping rear drums for discs would be a piece of cake.

3. Grandma cars make the ultimate sleeper. Consider this:

When challenged by some punk in a riceburner at a stoplight, would you rather drive something like a GTO or Chevelle, which obviously gives away it's performance, or would you rather drive some granny car with lots of chrome and no external mods. I'd take the latter, because there's a smaller possibility of getting caught by the fuzz (although I follow all traffic laws as it stands), and it's a bigger insult when you shut down the punk at the light. Also, the look of a Chrysler New Yorker with all the trim and chrome removed, holes filled, and painted solid black definately adds a performance edge to the look.

As for the Cavalier, the first generation Z24 models have a lot of promise for performance, especially considering the 2.8L MPFI engine they use. I find the Dynasty as a more acceptable platform, however, because very few have done it before, you have more passenger space, and the 2.5L L4 will never die. You can run it without coolant, blow the head gasket, give the engine a few minutes to cool down, and get back on the road to the nearest auto shop with no problems. There's plenty of space under the hood for basic maintanence, and if more room is required, one can easily move the battery to the trunk (which could store quite a few dead bodies, even with the compact spare), or ditch the AC system.

The only problem is with the A604 overdrive tranny (3 speed plus overdrive). This tranny is incredibly sensitive, and if you don't use the Mopar Dextron II fluid, the tranny craps out in about 10-20,000 miles. However, most 2.5L L4 equipped Dynasties use the 3-speed tranny, which holds it's own, and has a reasonable set of gear ratios.

On a side note, I got all this information from the following websites:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/5632/
http://www.allpar.com/model/acclaim.html

I know there's a Dodge Dynasty performance website out there somewhere, but I lost the bookmark for it a month or two ago. Check it out for more specs on the 2.5L L4.[/url]

[dwb]

told u mustangs are the new civics. i really done see a point in adding euro tail lights and stickers and wings. a couple of my friends have crownvic's they are the best sleeper car. one has a couple of bolts on his and runs close to a 15 in quater mile and one has a supercharger and intercooler that can do 13's if he puts on the right tires. plus they look like a cop car. i like the wrx very nice with the awd and turbo. the new cobra are over priced and still cant compete with the vette in power, handleing, and gas mileage. the evo8 might be slower then the cobra but it can out handle it and the wrx sti on the road. 4.7 for close to 30k and 4.9 to closer to 40k is a big difference. and lets not forget the MINI. handles like a dream and over in england soon to be in the us too there is a john mini version( i think this is the name) that i think puts it close to the 5 second range. seeing how much 0-60 matters with price y not just get a gsxr1000. they are fast good on gas and handleing. there real competion is a ducati 999and maybe the 998 but they cost alot more then the gixxer. my old car a 94 grand-am, i had the bottom of the line I4 whcih made 115hp and 140ftlbs, could keep up with a v6 stang around curves,straight aways i was lost but ended up catching back up. if it was me buying a car i would go for a wrx or a wrx sti if it came in auto. its got power and offroad capabilites also.

Dale

[Kamoc]

damn situational illiteracy.