AMV Review #43: Kionon's Countdown

[quadir]

AMV-Review's goal is to foster a sub-community that critically analyzes videos and looks for deeper meaning in the creations editors make. It is hoped that through this process will viewers and editors alike come to better appreciate videos that are well thought out, well executed, and progress AMVs as a medium of expression.

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On Monday at 20:30 EDT (8:30pm) in #amv-review we have a moderated discussion on a recently released video.
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This week's discussion video:

(kionon) - 2007 - Countdown
Category: Sentimental
Anime: Voices of a Distant Star (Hoshi No Koe)
Song: Natalie Imbruglia - Counting Down The Days

Please use this thread to discuss this video, there's no need to read the IRC log, just watch the video, and start talking about it! What emotions did it evoke in you? What do you think the video taught you about the character it features?

After each discussion, we throw out a "bonus" video, which often doesn't lend itself perfectly to analysis, or is already well established but is worth recommending. Check it out!

Bonus Video:
Pierre (p0d) - 2004 - Un Autre Jour
Category: Sentimental
Anime: Elfen Lied
Song: Calogero - Prendre Racine
Tags: [Nudity] [High Gore]

Archive of previous moderated discussions:
2007 December 042-31, 041-24, 040-17, 039-10, 038-03 November 037-26, 036-19, 035-12, 034-05
October 033-29, 032-22, 031-15, 030-08, 029-01, September 028-24, 027-17, 026-10, 025-03
August 024-27, 023-20, 022-13, 021-06, July 020-30, 019-23, 018-16, 017-09, 016-02
June 015-25, 014-18, 013-11, 012-04, May 011-28, 010-21, 009-14, 008-07
April 007-30, 006-23, 005-16, 004-09, 003-02, March 002-26, 001-19

[quadir]

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Discussion:

20:30 <quadir> (Kionon) - 2007 - Countdown
20:30 <quadir> http://www.a-m-v.org/video/154182
20:30 <quadir> Category: Sentimental
20:30 <quadir> Anime: Voices of a Distant Star (Hoshi No Koe)
20:30 <quadir> Song: The Final Countdown
20:30 <quadir> Artist: Europe
...
20:57 <KioAtWork> okay, which video was picked?
20:58 <quadir> KioAtWork: Were leaving ground
20:58 <quadir> KioAtWork: Will things ever be the same again?
20:58 <quadir> KioAtWork: Its the final countdown...
20:58 <Driftroot> wooo woo wooo
20:59 <quadir> don't forget to op the video
...
21:05 <Driftroot> Kio is my kind of editor, slow as hell and good looking
results
21:05 <quadir> nice the 'results' part of that sentence got wrapped.
21:05 <Driftroot> lol
21:06 <Rathisponge> Overall I thought the video was well done.
21:06 <Arkada> personally, I thought that when the source was slowed down it took away from the vid
21:07 <Driftroot> Arkada: that was my biggest/only major complaint - the stills
21:07 <Arkada> some wern't stills
21:07 <Rathisponge> Ah you mean when the video stops and zoomns in driftroot?
21:07 <Driftroot> Well, the slow spots, @ .34 and .57, for instance
21:07 <Arkada> they were just a normal clip slowed to less then half the normal speed that bothered me
21:08 <Driftroot> I was kind of floating along until those areas, then *twitch*
21:08 <Rathisponge> ah I see what you mean
21:09 <Driftroot> But they weren't prevelant enough or disturbing enough to ruin the overall experience, which was extremely good. Voices AMVs usually put me to sleep, but I was quite alert through all of Countdown.
21:09 <Arkada> Stills usually arn't the best source materal, I find
21:10 <PaperIsland> I like the song - puts us in the perspective of the girl instead of separating us from the story as an impartial observer
21:10 <quadir> it's true the stills (with zoom) contrasted a bit
21:10 <quadir> mostly I think because of detail and colour use
21:11 <Driftroot> PI: yes, the song was a very nice choice, not too sappy (another thing that usually puts me to sleep).
21:11 <Driftroot> quadir: he was moving in and out of the video a lot, so when the still occurred, it seemed very forced and/or static.
21:11 <Arkada> I don;t think it helped that there was movement, still, then movement. Made it more obvious I think
21:12 <PaperIsland> I can't say the slow parts really bothered me in particular, but I did find the parts where it picks up a bit to be some of the most exciting moments, like :54
21:13 <Arkada> Again I think the still at :56 took away that exciting feeling from me
21:13 <quadir> I'm suprised I hadn't really nitpicked the stills in my op, as I had noticed them, but I guess I moved on
21:13 <Driftroot> The slow parts would have been worse without the action...the action was like a breath of fresh air - kept things from getting to angsty and sluggish.
21:13 <quadir> but you guys are probably right, asside from the originality (as godix mentioned) it's probably the worst feature
21:14 <godix> I think Kionon is out there mining for gold in hills that have been mined out for years now
21:14 <PaperIsland> He keeps on returning to that cockpit shot, which I think is nice, the stills almost struck me as "photos" she was thinking about
21:14 <PaperIsland> especially at :56
21:14 <Arkada> quadir: what parts of sync in particular did you find to literal?
21:15 <PaperIsland> I think it might be like quadir said, the contrast of the zoom and still is a little unnerving
21:15 <quadir> godix: yeah I really came upon that question when we reviewed the video that used the same audio as Ragnarok
21:15 <godix> Oh, the ELO vid?
21:16 <quadir> Arkada: ah, yeah I mentioned that the literal sync was a bit too much, when doing a video in a overdone mix like this, you really _have_ to nail everything
21:16 <PaperIsland> the zoom is almost like a concession, "stills are less exciting, but if there is a zoom maybe..."
21:16 <Driftroot> I barely noticed the lyric synch...huh
21:16 <quadir> godix: yeah... I mean, when a concept is done so well already... is there a point to try to do it again? or to rehash and try to refine further? It's a big question that ends with "The forums should just be the last 4 years of threads, all locked, no new posting allowed."
21:17 <quadir> PaperIsland: true, if you look at MMV's then they try to use all kinds of tricks to spice it up, and yet the most powerful MMVs tend to just use simple transitions on straight stills
21:17 * dokidoki goes and changes some flags.
21:17 <PaperIsland> I mean... the ragnarok video is one of my favorites, but I still found the new video to be interesting
21:18 <PaperIsland> So I don't think it hurts
21:18 <PaperIsland> I like when you have such stiff competition that you are really forced to do something real different to set yourself apart
21:18 <PaperIsland> which you see in some eva and flcl videos in my opinion
21:19 <quadir> PaperIsland: exacly, tonight's video is an overdone genre, but I think it accomplishes something, so in that respect it's worthwhile. but it got 3 in originality from me
21:19 <quadir> wow sp
21:19 <godix> quadir: yeah, I know what you mean. And obviously there's no shame in rehashing the same ground. But at the same time, if you can't take it a step further than the guy before you or at least do it better then what's the point? Just watch the video the guy before you made and save yourself some effort.
21:19 <PaperIsland> Yeah, this video could have been a little more different
21:19 <G_Q> Well, different, how?
21:20 <quadir> godix: it's like watching pee-wee hockey. You're not there to see someone be the best ever. You're there to see someone be THEIR best ever.
21:20 <Arkada> thats the big question
21:20 <quadir> so in that respect, this video really pushes that enveloppe as if you take it in the editor context, he's finally hit mainstream
21:20 <PaperIsland> I guess arkada was confronting this same question with this series
21:20 <Driftroot> Well, like I said in my op, it's an accomplishment originality-wise if you make an AMV with a source like this that looks and feels different from everything else...it felt different to me, I don't know about anyone else.
21:21 <G_Q> Since I've seen little of Voices, it seems to hit me as a good vid that makes me want to see it now.
21:21 <godix> quadir: Ok, I'll grant that point. For a kionon video this actually wasn't bad. It was watchable at least. So he's improved himself even if he hasn't done anything new or better with the artform in general.
21:21 * Driftroot does think there's value in trying to create the BEST example of an overused concept.
21:22 <Driftroot> It's like an extra challenge.
21:22 <Arkada> Paper: True, I was. But then again I wasen't going for orig anyways
21:22 <Orwell> Alright, well, now that I've ruined my meal by watching this video while eating it. It's not bad, the sync is subtle but there, and generally, for a sentimental video, I'd have to say this is a better example of one
21:22 <Orwell> On the other hand, I hate the music
21:22 <PaperIsland> I feel like some videos are more "genre" videos as opposed to revolutionary videos, and there's nothing wrong with that
21:22 <PaperIsland> The current video I'm working on is a genre video
21:22 <quadir> so on that note PaperIsland really outlines the problem in delving into a space like this, if you're not going to do something original enough... maybe you should think twice. because this video doesn't do anything new
21:22 <Orwell> no it
21:22 <PaperIsland> :)
21:22 <Arkada> paper: agreed
21:23 <G_Q> quadir: See, I don't mind unoriginality.
21:23 <PaperIsland> I think the bar is different for experienced editors as well
21:23 <PaperIsland> when we know someone has the talent and skill to make something new, it's a little dissapointing when they just don't feel like it
21:23 <G_Q> I like dramatic/romantic, slow vids like this.
21:23 <quadir> and we've already pointed out some real flaws, like the stills being really jarring obvious filler, and I guess I should expand on why I think the lyric sync is just too literal for this kind of video to shine
21:23 <Arkada> Quadir: the only exception to that would be the type of editor that edits for the fun of editing, not because they make something origional
21:24 <G_Q> <--
21:24 <G_Q> ;)
21:24 <Driftroot> quadir: No, but it does it extremely well, so why slam it because other editors have muddied the waters, so to speak?
21:24 <quadir> G_Q: sortof like if I like action movies, I might see a new one that was "as good as that one" just because it's more of the same, it doesn't have to be "better" or "greater"
21:24 <Rathisponge> The only score which takes a hit from there being other similar amvs is the "originality" score, but if I enjoy the amv then my "overall" score will be higher
21:24 <Driftroot> Arkada: wait, you mean there's non-fun editing? :D
21:24 <Arkada> Heres a question, if this was the only voices vid out there, would it be any better?
21:25 <G_Q> Driftroot: godix has some stories about that.
21:25 <godix> driftroot: Because while kio does it acceptably well, he doesn't do it better than other examples I've seen. If he could do it better then great, but he didn't.
21:25 <Arkada> Drift: yeah its called university :)
21:25 <quadir> Arkada: I don't think so. it sticks so closely to the canon storyline and storytelling that I don't feel it's doing anything original in any way
21:25 <quadir> Arkada: it's just shortened a really sweet, sad, 30 minutes into 3.
21:25 <Orwell> x2
21:26 <PaperIsland> Yeah... the ending was a little too tame for me as well
21:26 <Driftroot> *shrugs* I thought he did it quite well, for what it is.
21:26 <quadir> Arkada: I loved the OAV though, so I like the video
21:26 <Driftroot> Arkada: are you in Canada?
21:26 * G_Q agrees with Driftroot.
21:26 <godix> Arkada: Yes, it would be better if it was the only one. Because if it was I wouldn't be sitting here going 'bet the bike scene is up next. Oh yeah, nailed that one! next will be the snow scene. Oh, bzzt. he went with the cockpit scene.'
21:26 <Orwell> Even if this was the only video with this show, I'd still feel that it was exceptionally uninspiring in all aspects. Not to say it's bad, but, I don't feel like it pushed anything. It's too generic.
21:26 <Arkada> Quadir: could it be that if every voices vid was the same, like being a drama type 30min into 2, would they all be unorig?
21:26 <Arkada> Drift: yes
21:27 <Driftroot> That's kind of how Voices is, though...kinda laid back, genericish... (in some ways).
21:27 <PaperIsland> No more generic than a lot of series I've seen unusual videos too though
21:27 <quadir> Arkada: no. I say it's unoriginal on two fronts. It doesn't do anything storyline/storytelling, and it's not differentiating itself from it's peers
21:27 <godix> I don't think the anime is generic, it was more a mood piece anime than a story driven one. And it did a brilliant job at it.
21:27 <Driftroot> Arkada: I haven't run into a Canadian who does say "its called university" vs. "it's called college," yet. Just my random observations on the world... :)
21:28 <quadir> Arkada: so I guess the answer to your question is yes, but only because every other video would be the same
21:28 <Arkada> Quadir: fair enough
21:28 <Orwell> I don't mean the anime itself is generic, but the editing style is.
21:28 <quadir> Driftroot: I went to college, and I have to correct myself when talking to people and saying you have a diploma... when they have a degree.
21:28 <Orwell> It has no notable features about I feel
21:28 <Arkada> Drift: yay for us stupid canuks who can't get into uni
21:29 <Driftroot> :(
21:29 <PaperIsland> can't get in? the doors frozen shut or something? :)
21:29 <Arkada> Yes, its cold up here
21:29 <Arkada> lol
21:29 <godix> I think the problem is the source very VERY heavily drives an editor into a certain style of video with a certain mood. Unless you were intentionally going for ironicly wrong humor I doubt you could do much more with this source than Kio and 220 others have.
21:29 <Driftroot> I must live close to the border, it's all degree/diploma to me.
21:29 <godix> Which doesn't forgive the unoriginality of it all but does explain it
21:30 <Driftroot> Which means, in my book, you have to expand your definition of originality to accommodate the limitations of the source.
21:30 <PaperIsland> Well you have the upbeat or downbeat choice...
21:30 <Arkada> Godix: thats because you can't really make this vid into another genre, although I would love to see someone try
21:30 <Servo> so is the Kio vid any good?
21:30 <PaperIsland> I'd like to see that as well
21:30 <PaperIsland> and if you could avoid romance or action, that would be amazing...
21:30 <Driftroot> I could try and make a Ghostbusters video out of it. It's got phones, it's got...potentially spooky scenes...it's got...phones...
21:31 <Arkada> Voices into a dance vid
21:31 <Arkada> somebody GO!
21:31 <godix> Arkada: Yeah, that was my point. You can't do it unless you intentionally toss out everything that made the anime what it is. You'd HAVE to go for intentionally ironic opposition to the animes mood/story to make anything even semi-original out of it.
21:31 <Driftroot> Servo: yes
21:31 <PaperIsland> Yes, it's good, but doesn't push any stylistic boundaries
21:31 <godix> The anime just doesn't provide enough to do anything but slow, boring, character doing nothing orienated drama vids
21:31 <PaperIsland> we seem to be agreeing for the most part on that...
21:31 <quadir> :52 travel through time, 1:00 hold you tight, 1:50 of your touch, 1:59 in the dark, were scene picks I could of done without
21:32 <Arkada> same
21:32 <quadir> Arkada: since you asked what I thought were overly lyric sync
21:32 <quadir> but the whole video could of been straight lyric sync and I would of said 'its a decent video'
21:32 <Servo> might as well check it out
21:32 <PaperIsland> I think it's worth noting that the structure is somewhat interseting
21:32 <Driftroot> You know, the ORG needs a yearly challenge...first one could be make a totally original, outrageous (but coherent and well done) Voices AMV.
21:32 <quadir> what I really liked was some of the really complex imagery lyric sync
21:32 <PaperIsland> returning to the boy asleep at his desk and returning to the cockpit
21:33 <quadir> something that was greater then the sum of it's parts, the audio alone, or the video alone
21:33 <Arkada> Drift: Good idea
21:33 <Servo> Driftroot: better yet, Death Note
21:33 <PaperIsland> Drift: I think godix is on that track
21:33 <quadir> but together they made something completely different, like 1:24. or 1:28
21:33 <Driftroot> Yeah, but Death note has TONS of footage to pull from...compare that to Voices and there's just no competition.
21:33 <quadir> "just the usual here" (warning sign), "days are feeling like this" (rain)
21:34 <dokidoki> Anime North has a challenge every year. In the past it's been... make a video exactly one minute long, make a video with country music, and make a video with older anime. (I forget which decade specified exactly)
21:34 <Servo> Death note's footage is more limited than you think
21:34 <Driftroot> Oh...people say the same thing about Advent Children. ;)
21:34 <Servo> even though it has 37 episodes, majority of the show is just dialogue
21:34 <Arkada> Doki: 80's I belive
21:34 <dokidoki> ok
21:35 <PaperIsland> quadir: I think it the exceptional unity of the video that gave it that greater than the sum of its parts feel
21:35 <PaperIsland> it is*
21:36 <quadir> "I'll hold tight" at :20 is all about her loosing control of her life and love
21:36 <quadir> where she's desperatly looking around for her cell
21:36 <quadir> that completely changed the meaning
21:36 <quadir> both of her relationship and the song
21:37 <quadir> those were the sync's that really said to me "he's got something here"
21:37 <quadir> so if we're done, final thoughts people?
21:38 <Rathisponge> Overall a good job :)
21:38 <godix> Technically I can't really rag on the video. It had a few issues here and there but nothing major. Conceptually and originality, this video just plain sucks.
21:38 <PaperIsland> Very unified video in feel and style, could have pushed some more boundaries, especially because we know who made it :)
21:38 <Arkada> Could have been better without the stills, and the slow moving scenes. Not very orig but what Voices vid is, however the story behind the vid was moving and emotional.
21:38 <quadir> I liked it, "he's got something here", not perfect but close enough that I keep rewatching it
21:40 <Servo> the one thing about this video overall for me, is that it doesn't stand out. It's well put together, but unfortunately me personally is looking for something more
21:41 <Arkada> I think that now a days people see a Voices vid and move on without actually downloading
21:41 <Arkada> Countdown is an example, as well as my own voices vid
21:42 <Orwell> Arkada: In this case, it was more of a kio video, than the anime used
21:42 <Arkada> Orwell: Yes

21:44 <quadir> so before the was online iron editor
21:45 <quadir> there was this iron chef like competition in the french community
21:45 <quadir> and 2004 was a good year
21:45 <quadir> here is the poster: http://www.fantasy-movies.net/homenew/concours.php
21:45 <quadir> you might recognize a few names there, as they are more common now
21:46 -!- godix changed the topic of #amv-review to: MAKE WITH THE BONUS VIDEO ALREADY!
21:46 <quadir> here's a video that won him a win in bracket one, against enail who was probably one of the other best editors in the contest
21:46 <quadir> poor seeding
21:47 <quadir> let me have my story you smuck
21:47 <quadir> so here it is:
21:47 <quadir> Pierre (p0d) - 2004 - Un Autre Jour
21:47 <quadir> video: http://www.a-m-v.org/video/55850
21:47 <quadir> Category: Sentimental
21:47 <quadir> Anime: Elfen Lied
21:47 <quadir> Song: CAlogero - Prendre Racine
21:47 <quadir> Tags: [Nudity] [High Gore]
21:47 <godix> ah cool, I usually like p0d vids
21:48 <Arkada> yeah
21:49 <Servo> club that damn seal
21:49 <quadir> I forget how much time they had to edit
21:49 <quadir> but their audio was prepicked for each round
21:49 <quadir> unfortunatly p0d kicked out another top seed in the first round, then backed out of the tournament in the 2nd round like a hozer
21:52 <godix> ah yeah, I remember this one. Interesting in a stylistic type of way
21:52 <Orwell> This video had everything to make it good, however, I just don't like it.
21:52 <Arkada> To be honest, I don;t like french
21:53 <Rathisponge> Interesting video.
21:53 <Servo> needs more nudity
21:53 <Arkada> over synced at parts Im finding
21:55 <Servo> i thought the lyrics fit the vid
21:55 <Arkada> however It shows how stills can be used to look good
21:55 <Servo> yeah and not be M@D
21:58 <PaperIsland> I don't like the effects
21:58 <PaperIsland> You shouldn't need such enlivening effects when you have such a "charged" series
21:59 <Arkada> In the beginning I found the efects to be a little much, but then they got better for me
22:00 <Servo> Hmmm...I'm assuming pOd used a mask overlay to get those clips to look like paintings in the beginning
22:02 <Servo> yeap, he used an overlay, I can see a little bit of the threashold bleading at the 0:45 transition

[teya]

While I can understand rating something low in points for originality, I don't believe something has to be totally original to be enjoyable. I thought this video was beautiful. Some technical aspects weren't spot on, but they didn't distract me.

Originality is something really difficult to achieve. So many things have been done before, how does one come up with something totally new? How often do you have an idea that you truly believe nobody has ever thought of before? In making any sort of art, I would think it's more important to do something you want to do and/or something that you think others would appreciate. Some might find it boring to see many videos of the same type, but I would find it boring if I could only find one video of a type I like.

/rant =P