Where is our world going?

[nommay]

Not gonna lie, the org is pretty damn intimidating

[Corran]

Godix, I think it is a good point that anime music videos may be in decline in general but I don't think that google trends is a good indicator. For example, check out the trends for "music video". I think the decline since 2005 for this particular query has more to do with where people are searching. With so many video sites these days, I would wager that YT, vimeo and other sites are stealing some of these queries from general purpose search engines as they grow in popularity.

Kionon, I disagree that the org is "for editors by editors" (we are editor-oriented perhaps but we definitely do not cater to them exclusively) or that the forum must be the only place for community discussion. The site homepage states: This community is dedicated to the creation, discussion, and general enjoyment of fan-made anime music videos. A huge majority of the users do not use the forum. Whether it be intentional or due to ignorance, there is a large portion of the user base being left out of the discussion. For all we know, there are regular users out there that might grow deeply interested and serious about amvs but not until having a chance to discuss them with like-minded individuals.



It is obvious from this data that the forum represents the "core" community, but to call it the community is excluding a ton of people. Imho, if someone has entered a video, wrote info for their profile, left an opinion, etc. then they are looking to play some role in this community. Look at the journal system and the banner ad contest. When I joined this site I had no idea they would get as popular as they did. For several months people were posting journals as though they were in a chat room. The org had a chat room back then, but for these users it was not the preferred mode of communication. Instead of shunning additional conversation, we should facilitate it.

For the new generation, I think quick comments are a turn off. People are used to being able to have public conversations about videos, whether it be on YT or some other streaming site. Quick comments were never intended to be anything more than a quick, one-way blip of feedback for the editor only. They were introduced to reduce the number of full fledged opinions that simply said things like, 10 10 10 10 10 "it was good" etc. I personally find it sad that we've been around longer than any of the current video sites, but we've always limited people to such narrow focus for communication. Part of this was for moderation reasons, but the QC system leaves much to desire.

People were posting earlier in this thread that they were worried that they would be drowned out by newbies if site activity increased... Before local hosting we had the most forum posts per month. Forum participation declined slightly before the site reached its peak and even during that time, there were plenty of notable people. The BSP studios crew, Tash, Joykiller, and Bote to name a few. While almost every other stat on this site steadily dropped since the end of 2005, it wasn't until phpbb was upgraded last year that the forum took a hit. I'm not sure if this is because people couldn't adjust to the new layout, if they could not log in and gave up thinking it would never be fixed, or because the forum was down so long that it gave people a chance to go outside long enough to return to the "real world"... I personally don't think that we have to sacrifice forum participation to make the org more social overall. There will always be people who are hard-core about this hobby and want to discuss it in an open forum like this.

As Jasper alluded to earlier in the thread, not much development is on the horizon for personal, technical, and shared reasons... and as a result I am in the process of stepping down. (Hence the reason my name is no longer in red and my name is not in the administration thread.) That said, if someone were to write a serious, well-written "Welcome to the Org" guide for the org's guide section explaining the focus of the community, what users can do on this site in general terms, and where they can go for help regarding specific things, then I would be willing to code a notice that stays on the members main page for two weeks after registration that directs users to it. (Kind of like the current PM notification system that displays above the news items when you get a new PM.) Such a guide should be peer edited or reviewed imo before publishing.

I feel like I am just rambling now...

[mirkosp]

That said, if someone were to write a serious, well-written "Welcome to the Org" guide for the org's guide section explaining the focus of the community, what users can do on this site in general terms, and where they can go for help regarding specific things, then I would be willing to code a notice that stays on the members main page for two weeks after registration that directs users to it. (Kind of like the current PM notification system that displays above the news items when you get a new PM.) Such a guide should be peer edited or reviewed imo before publishing.

A wiki would beat to death any amount of guides... would allow for more info to be added, in faster ways, and would also have fresher content at any time. Guides get easily outdated even after a couple months they are released (especially something like the AVTECH), so a wiki would really be helpful. Add to that how all users would be able to help writing it up, and you get something pretty useful.
AFAIK there actually used to be an amv wiki but is now long gone... it should be reinstated.

Also, I'll add in here too that what made me more active and actually interested in AMV editing was #AMV. Joining the IRC chat made me feel the community more entertaining and as a consequence I found the whole hobby to appeal me more, and this eventually brought me to become more active as a user on the forums and as an editor on the main site. IRC chat has also always been a fast way to get good feedback and to organize fast ICs and such, so it really pushed and helped me to improve. Seeing this, I think that the org chat should become more prominent. Or actually, adding a tagboard on the main page and a "free comments" area under every video page would greately help to get the community more active and involved, I think. So far the only way to quickly exchange feedback and have a discussion on vids with comments that stay there forever and are readable by anyone is through the forum, but something that is so important to the hobby as a whole should be available on the main site, imho.

[Angelyco]

I personally like having quick comments and opinions private...I think it gives people a chance to be more honest with the editor, and the editor wouldn't have to worry about a few bad reviews making them look bad to others. I know that if everything was public, I would be much more guarded in what I write in reviews in fear of making the editor look or feel bad knowing other people would see it, even if it was -constructive- criticism.

[Kionon]

Kionon, I disagree that the org is "for editors by editors" (we are editor-oriented perhaps but we definitely do not cater to them exclusively) or that the forum must be the only place for community discussion. The site homepage states: This community is dedicated to the creation, discussion, and general enjoyment of fan-made anime music videos. A huge majority of the users do not use the forum. Whether it be intentional or due to ignorance, there is a large portion of the user base being left out of the discussion. For all we know, there are regular users out there that might grow deeply interested and serious about amvs but not until having a chance to discuss them with like-minded individuals.

As I've said on IRC, this morning, in fact, my opinion will likely never change. There are activities viewers can participate in. A few, like quadir, have even made a real impact. However, I will never view the org as anything other than an editor community. That's why when Phade told me about his grand idea, I was all for it, and it's why I joined, that's why I do what I can to provide guides and stickies that make the editing process easier, it's why I give a damn, and most importantly, it's why after nearly a decade, I'm even still here.

Honesty compels me to admit, I am incapable of seeing the hobby as a viewer, because I was an editor before I was viewer. The whole reason I started editing was because as someone with a Radio TV Film background, I took a look at the crap LimpBizkit x DragonBallZ videos all over the early p2p software and said, "Man, these are crap. I know I can do better." So, I simply don't have a framework of experiences allowing me to view this hobby without considering editing as primary.

The moment I feel editing becomes this thing we "sorta do" and not something we deeply care about is the moment I leave. Maybe retire, maybe just take Atari's suggestion and start my own highly technical, highly selective, closed community. I have considered it anyhow. The org would become for fun, and the new forum would be limited to posts about technique and technology.

Also, I don't ever use my journal. I don't even use the main site. I make banners, sometimes. I've never submitted a logo. If I don't get a video off of the announcement forum, I don't get it at all. Every few months I will do a search for new Utena videos that I missed, but rarely do I find more than one that is worth keeping. To me, the forums are the org, because it is the best representation of the portion of the AMV universe I agree with, and what I've always considered the "org" to be from 2000/2001 all the way to now. I recognise there are other portions, I don't go elsewhere because the forums already fit my views of what AMVdom should look like. Does it have flaws? Certainly. You and I have butted heads over issues where I think the org or the forums are trending towards a direction I consider unpalatable.

If this is not what the majority of org users want, they can change it by applying pressure to the administration. My views honestly are not that important. I'm only one person, and despite how vocal I am, I can be easily ignored. My saying that I will leave is hardly a threat, it is merely a fact. Without the org as it has been, I simply don't care, and what is the point of doing something you don't care about? For me, and perhaps only for me, where there is no value, there can be no enjoyment. So no one needs to feel they need to soften the blow or bring me on board. I'm just not that significant.

[godix]

Godix, I think it is a good point that anime music videos may be in decline in general but I don't think that google trends is a good indicator.

It's the only stats I have available. I don't have org stats, although thanks for providing some. Youtube doesn't provide these types of stats AFAIK. So I agree google trends isn't the best way to measure this sort of thing, but it's all I got.

I suppose I should note I mentioned my theory of anime being a dying fad so all anime based hobbies like amvs are dying as well to someone recently; they pointed out they're big into fanfic and that is going as strong as ever. That take personal claim for whatever anyone feels it's worth.

For the new generation, I think quick comments are a turn off.

One of my suggestions that I didn't bother making because of the no new coding thing, but I think it'd be a good idea to have the option to link to the announcement thread in the vid profile and have it appear beneath everything.

That said, if someone were to write a serious, well-written "Welcome to the Org" guide for the org's guide section explaining the focus of the community, what users can do on this site in general terms, and where they can go for help regarding specific things, then I would be willing to code a notice that stays on the members main page for two weeks after registration that directs users to it. (Kind of like the current PM notification system that displays above the news items when you get a new PM.) Such a guide should be peer edited or reviewed imo before publishing.

I'd actually support that. So much so I'd write the stupid thing except my grasp of grammar borders on a 3rd graders.

A wiki would beat to death any amount of guides... would allow for more info to be added, in faster ways, and would also have fresher content at any time. Guides get easily outdated even after a couple months they are released (especially something like the AVTECH), so a wiki would really be helpful.

For the most part, it's only the tech guides that get outdated. A guide on how to upload, the purpose of the community, the ways of communication (IRC, forums, journal, etc), and so on would only be outdated when the site itself changes how it works. The whole no more code updates for awhile kinda suggests that sort of stuff won't change for quite awhile. Besides, a wiki would essentially shove people off the established site. Instead of saying 'Hey, here's the forums and here's some guides available on it' we'd be saying 'Hey, go to this thing totally unrelated to any established org community...' Exactly the sort of thing we should NOT be doing.

[Moonlight Soldier]

That said, if someone were to write a serious, well-written "Welcome to the Org" guide for the org's guide section explaining the focus of the community, what users can do on this site in general terms, and where they can go for help regarding specific things, then I would be willing to code a notice that stays on the members main page for two weeks after registration that directs users to it. (Kind of like the current PM notification system that displays above the news items when you get a new PM.) Such a guide should be peer edited or reviewed imo before publishing.

I'd actually support that. So much so I'd write the stupid thing except my grasp of grammar borders on a 3rd graders.

Write it and I'll edit it.

[Kionon]

I already edit things for godix, and honestly, I am not above writing it myself.

[OropherZero]

Most AMVs on the site use old anime (pre-2005), and there has been a decline of shounen JUMP AMVs the past few years. Why then would generation y anime fans/angst teenagers join the site? Most likely they've been watching something newer and will find more results from a streaming site than the org's database. Just my impression when I do a search on an anime and get 0 or 2 results from .org and hundreds from yt. Generation y editors will think that theres no point uploading for this site as a result of lack of people expecting to find something they want to watch.

[Kionon]

Most AMVs on the site use old anime (pre-2005)

old anime (pre-2005)

old...pre-2005

Oh ho ho ho ho. You slay me.