AMV Meta-Review #44: AMV Critiques

[Kionon]

I don't think it really needs a score rating though.

Heart is just a valid a category as Effort (also looking at EffuShee with this response). If we are asked to rate Effort, I think we can also find a way to rate Heart. FC's complaints are just as valid for Effort as they are for Heart. I believe Effort also follows the same personal thought process as you suggest you go through for emotional impact commentary.

Very rarely have I ever seen this kind of feedback given in the op system (though it does happen some times). I really don't see this kind of feedback as very useful after a video has been "finished" unless they plan on remaking the whole thing, but it's highly useful during beta testing.

Make a note, Old Man. I prefer to give AND receive this type of criticism. If a video has enough for me to say, I will be more than happy to go second by second. Examples of this are my ops on SnhKnive's Static, Reigna's Lost Ones, my own quadir-demanded op of Countdown, and Kisanzi's Tear-Stained Hearts. Last one is important because:

1) HEART: I cried. This was just about the most emotional video I have ever seen. I am not quite sure where the hell this fits on the scale, but whatever you did, you did it well. I don't easily cry. I can't even tell you the last time I cried. I'll have to make up for the lack of a "heart" or "emotion" category by upping your overall score. You deserve it. Phade, if you're listening, I demand a "heart" category right this instant! It's important to infuse emotion into videos. That's half the reason I watch them. You didn't just go the extra mile here, you jumped on a flight to Beijing. I am floored.

On Announcement Threads:
This is the place I will usually just leave short feedback, I don't know what kind of feedback this person is looking for, and if all they want is a short "ego stroke/bashing" then there is no point in me wasting my time writing out long detailed op to them.. it's a waste of my time to leave more than initial impressions unless they ask for them.

My view on the announcement forum is to track or gauge interest levels. I can predict, if a video goes over well, about how many people download per announcement post, regardless of what each post actually says. Lurkers seem to download based on popularity of a given announcement thread, even if half the posts hate the video and are debating with the half that liked it. I really have no interest in what you say, as long as you have something to add. Good, bad, small, large. It's all cool to me. Shows you downloaded the thing and cared enough to take some sort of action. That's all. For constructive criticism, however...

In the op form:
I will leave the standard "a bit in the good box, a bit in the bad box, and in general explanations as to why I scored the way I did + a bit on my feelings on the video" I find that this is the medium that works well for the form... Unless someone wants more than that and tells me that a detailed opinion on their video, I have no reason to write more, once again it could very well be a waste of my time to leave more than that.

I care about what I get out of my critique. If the editor never reads the opinion, I still hope it has helped me become a better critic. Serious feedback should be publicly placed in an opinion. My format is as follows.

I grade all videos on a School Format:

10.0 = A+ (Perfection)
9.0-9.9 = A
8.0-8.9 = B
7.0-7.9 = C
6.0-6.9 = D
1.0-5.9 = Varying Degrees of F

(Fill in Numbers)

Good:

- Good 1
- Good 2
- Good 3

1). Good 1 - Good 1 worked because...

2). Good 2 - Good 2 worked because...

3). Good 3 - Good 3 worked because...

Bad:

* Same format as above.

Overall:

This is where I put a summary, as if I were writing an essay. I really liked/hated this video. It had these good points. I really think that such and such worked well. However, the video suffered because the editor failed to take into account this this and this. However the structure was coherent and the concept came through. I found this video to be highly reviewable and it will go on my iPod.

Giving Vs Receiving:
I find that there are issues on both ends because people don't really communicate what kind of feedback they would like, and if they do they are mostly very vague about what it is they want.

I agree here. I've never had an editor turn down my second by second critiques though, so I won't change my format unless I'm told before hand. Usually my only alterations are in beta testing. Sometimes I will ask for betatesting feedback on just specific parts. For countdown, I had a conflict with aesling's recommendation on one part and had to go to Orwell for a second opinion before I took that advice. I didn't take that advice based on the second opinion (I did, however, take all of her other advice). I told Orwell specifically "I want to know about x, I do not want to know about y." That's completely fair for betatesting. I don't believe that should necessarily be warranted in opinions however.

As a personal preference I'm pretty vague about what kind of feedback I want because I actually like all kinds. If people will take the time to write out long critiques then I am willing to read them. I might poke fun later but that doesn't mean that I haven't read/absorbed what they said.

All feedback is good. Some feedback is merely more useful than others.

Personally I see nothing wrong with telling a newbie to improve their technical aspect part first because once they get the "basics" down they can then go on to improve in other areas as well.

If we are going to compare this to art, we can go on about how we don't start out painting masterpieces but start out with drawing stick figures and working our way up the scale... just about every good classically trained artist has gone through and started with the basics. IMHO the same can be applied to AMVs.. The technical aspects of an amv are the "basics" and if they want to work their way up to artist they gotta start somewhere.

I said precisely this in #amv-review a few hours ago. Glad to see I'm not the only one. I said*:

<Kionon> Aspect Ratio is a basic. Deinterlacing is a basic.
<Kionon> I consider them basics. You don't teach reading without teaching the ABCs.
<Kionon> AR issues do not prevent me from seeing a video as an achievement.
<Kionon> Buuuut.
<Kionon> It's still a basic, and the first thing I am likely to ask to be corrected.
<Kionon> I don't judge a video's worth on AR issues. I point it out because it is noticeable, easily fixable, and deserves to be explained.

* (edited for brevity and clarity)

What I don't like is the assumption that feedback is REQUIRED... either you are required to give it or receive it.

You do yourself and the community a disservice when you do not contribute to the discourse. It's no more required than taking a shower every day, but I wouldn't want people to use the fact it's not required to make my time around them less valuable. Just because you can avoid doesn't mean you should avoid offering criticism.

There are those out there that just like watching and don't really want to be involved. My friend Eric who got me into amvs is like that, he's been on the org way longer than I have and hasn't given a single piece of feedback to any one on this site (cept when I forced him to beta for me that one time).

Is he an editor, is he actually active, does he contribute? If the answer is yes, then my personal opinion, and it is an opinion nothing more, he should be doing more.

There are also those out there that expect that just because they put an amv on here that means that they will be flooded with opinions (of any kind: ego stroking, the crit kind that give advice, etc.).

Everyone deserves feedback. It's more a matter of will they like what you have to so, and will they use it effectively? If I feel the answer is no on both accounts, I do not leave feedback. I want to leave them feedback, but I must prioritize. So I pick people with demonstrated potential. I'll reconsider when such potential is shown. That's my call, and it doesn't mean the person doesn't deserve the feedback. It just means I feel someone else is more deserving of it right this second.

Opinions (in any of the forms) are OPTIONAL. No one is required to give or receive them. I understand people wanting more community involvement but not everyone is out to get that.

...you send a different message when you join a community. Especially if you contribute in any public way. Don't join if you don't want to commune. That's the base word of community, right?

[Knowname]

I'm sorry, but Kionon, no, they don't lol. Nobody HAS to do anything, this is a HOBBY, even if your an editor it's like your a volunteer, you don't HAVE to provide feedback. Sure you have to do something, as an editor, you HAVE to do your work and edit your creation (to your own stipulations) or else why the heck would you volunteer in the first place?? But anything passed that you just don't have ANY obligation to do!

I realize this may be my sort of way of thinking. I don't know if your really asian or not, but it's pretty typical of asians to feel this way, but, and I'm sorry to come down on you like this, there are two different theories on this.

Now if this were a job or some sort of Capitolistic effort than I can see how responsibilities can be shifted. Also I've noted how some people take it SO seriously that it really emulates a job for them! But even so, no, I don't feel you HAVE to do anything.

[quadir]

We're past the posts I'm responding to, but I think the ideas still apply.

1st - When taken as a whole, the vast majority of vids here you watch do not have any reaching artistic value or meaning beyond that which is painfully obvious to begin with. Why change your review style to discuss a handful (tiny %) to begin with?

why is a video with "artistic value" better than a video that doesn't have it?

I think you've misunderstood. There is a difference between analyzing something artistically and analyzing if it meets it's focus. If you have a comedy video, then judge it as a comedy video. Does it's editing accomplish that goal, how does it contribute to it? Did you laugh? or just type lol?

even if your an editor it's like your a volunteer, you don't HAVE to provide feedback.

I think you really nailed it, but for the wrong reasons. You don't have to participate in a community, and yet if the community is giving you something, it is polite to give back. That is a responsibility. You can shrug it off and say "I don't owe them anything.", and you will be selfish. It's exacly as you said, the community does something good for you, you should do something good for it. Okay I'm repeating myself.

Lastly, I wanted to point out that as sofar as the -review is concerned, trying to spark serious discussion does not pretentious, or looking for "art". It's appreciating things for what they are, and encouraging people to be more ambitious.

I would almost say that the whole point of an opinion is to be non-technical. A machine can tell me if my AR is wrong. A machine can tell me if my audio is soft or has static. Why would I want to join a community only to have machines talk to me? I want opinions. I want an audience. I want to know if someone laughed. I want to know if they cried. I want to know if I succeeded in entertaining. These are all subjective, they are all opinions, and yet it is the most precious thing a community can offer you. Not only shoudl you treasure it, but the community should treasure it, promote it, and everyone will have a better time.

[JaddziaDax]

Heart is just a valid a category as Effort (also looking at EffuShee with this response). If we are asked to rate Effort, I think we can also find a way to rate Heart. FC's complaints are just as valid for Effort as they are for Heart. I believe Effort also follows the same personal thought process as you suggest you go through for emotional impact commentary.

It might deserve to be mentioned, and it's nice to be said but it doesn't necessarily need to have numbers assigned to it. I don't know about you but on a day to day basis I don't go around thinking "on a scale of 1-10 I'm feeling 5 pissed off today". It's more like "I'm pissed off". I don't need number values assigned to my emotions or how I feel about something... Granted this is my opinion.

Make a note, Old Man. I prefer to give AND receive this type of criticism.

Then you would be one of those rare cases, dur, but not everyone is going to go out and write everyone else a detailed opinion. If I wrote overly detailed opinions on every video I ever watched, my hands would fall off from all the typing @_@

My view on the announcement forum is to track or gauge interest levels.

That's pretty much one of the reasons to leave short feedback. If someone asks for an elaboration then I'll give it to them, if they don't care enough about what I had to say then I'll drop it. Plus I see Announcement threads as a means of advertising more so than a "feedback" place so short posts stating weather it was good or not seem the best thing for them.

I care about what I get out of my critique. If the editor never reads the opinion, I still hope it has helped me become a better critic.

See, I'm not trying to be a critic, I'm just leaving my opinion, because someone asked me what I thought.

You do yourself and the community a disservice when you do not contribute to the discourse. It's no more required than taking a shower every day, but I wouldn't want people to use the fact it's not required to make my time around them less valuable. Just because you can avoid doesn't mean you should avoid offering criticism.

but at the same time it's not required for me to go over to your house and beat you with a baseball bat till your face is a bloody mess on the floor. We can compare what is required and not required all day, sometimes some things are better left unsaid. Sometimes silence is required.

[img]Is%20he%20an%20editor,%20is%20he%20actually%20active,%20does%20he%20contribute?%20If%20the%20answer%20is%20yes,%20then%20my%20personal%20opinion,%20and%20it%20is%20an%20opinion%20nothing%20more,%20he%20should%20be%20doing%20more.[/img]
Actually that is his exact reason for not leaving feedback: he doesn't edit therefore he feels that he has no place to say anything, but the same thing can be said about our lovely original poster here. and I'd say my friend contributes to the community by watching and passing on the videos he likes to his friends. There are other ways to contribute to a community other than leaving feedback to other members. It's just that feedback is like currency here.

Everyone deserves feedback. It's more a matter of will they like what you have to so, and will they use it effectively?

Deserving and expecting are two different words. You might think you deserve to be given a brand new car, but you shouldn't expect one to fall into your garage one day.

...you send a different message when you join a community. Especially if you contribute in any public way. Don't join if you don't want to commune. That's the base word of community, right?

just because you sign up for the org doesn't mean that you want to join the community, perhaps it means that you want to help the site with it's original mission statement: to list every video ever made, or you want access to the LOCAL files. Also as I said before, there are other ways to contribute to this community other than giving feedback.

[JaddziaDax]

sorry for the double post but the prime examples of people who act as if people OWE them opinions are usually not the type to GIVE them either.

[Fall_Child42]

I don't think it really needs a score rating though.

Heart is just a valid a category as Effort (also looking at EffuShee with this response). If we are asked to rate Effort, I think we can also find a way to rate Heart. FC's complaints are just as valid for Effort as they are for Heart.

Effort is still a stupid category, but I gave you an 8

technical aspects are the only thing that people CAN judge with any semblance of authority but even then it still falls more towards subjectivity rather than empirical measuring. I still maintain that the only one who should truly accept an opinion, is the person giving it because it is more of a reflection of why why you liked/didn't like that video not really about any sort of wrong doings on the part of the video creator.

P.S.

My link to one of Dan Deacon's songs did have a purpose. I want people to listen to that song, and tell me if they thought it was good music, if they thought it was horrible and irritating fine, but that doesn't mean I can't hear the same thing and think I love this music and I think it's brilliant (because I do) and also be correct. The only one able to truly critique that work, is Dan Deacon himself, because he knew what he wanted to do with it and only he knows if he managed to to that.

P.P.S.
As for art. The problem with art is it is not the creator that determines it art, it's every other person that looks at it.

[CodeZTM]

I've been reading through the posts, and I would like to comment on a few topics that have been brought up.

Emotional Category In Opinions

While I personlly would love to have this category, and feel that it would be a very good thing to add, I can't say that as a critiquer it would be plausible. I would love to say that some videos have made me cry, and that they were emotionally appealing. On the other hand, other people might not feel the same way as I do. Granted, this kind of thing is similar to a person's score on the video editing and originaly categories, I think that emotional feelings felt during a video can't be properly measured.

BUT!

I still think it should be a category. ^_^ Sometimes, when juding art or similar things, we have to look beyond the technical world and see it for what it is.

Learning From Critiques

I've had one good expierence with this. A member, Anurok, requested some assistance from me when I critiqued his video. I helped him learn a few editing tricks, and he's made a mile of progress, and I'd love to give him the VCA for most improved editor. He went from WMM trash to really well done and slightly above average action videos. Other people just ignore my critiques, or they take it too literally and take it as an insult. Personally, Ijust wave it off. It's their right to either improve their editing style or not. I can't force them, I can just try and aid them.

Deserving VS Earning Critiques

Bleck. I hate the category. I do critiques for two reasons. One: Somebody requests it from me and I would like to help them out. Two: I really like a video, and would like to leave feeback.

I would love critiques, and I have people like Ayanefan to thank for them. People that frequently help out in the Opinion Forum, or other people like Quadir, Jaddziadax, Kionon, Godix, KevMasta (The last two in their own little ways...) ect that do a lot to help improve the curve of AMV trends to fit what could be seen as "proper editing". I don't expect opinions just because I posted a video. I give out opinions/critiques/betas because I love watching AMV's and giving my two cents worth.

ART/Technical Aspects

Bleck. Another category hated. AMV's, FOR ME AT LEAST, are considered to be art in my eyes. I try not to care about technical aspects (I posted about this in my earlier post and AMV's as examples), and look for the message hidden deep within.

Critiquing is a lot like school. You have the mathmatical and logical classes. You have the artisitc and deep classes delving into a world of beauty and fantasy. You take both and call it a public education. Woot. ^_^

[-MD]

ooo good thing I saw this thread....*sighs* here I go....

Ok first off I personally give just quick little comments in announcement threads...I hardly ever say what I am thinking unless I am giving you an opinion. When I give ops I usually tell you everything I saw...and thought could be improved (outside of the technical issues).

I think I saw a post yesterday (I dug it up). No offence to this person..in fact he started sometime between Oct or Nov and he is 4 to 8 time better then I'll ever be...but I think he has breathing too much of the org's air @.@

(Begin)

"Hi

Didn't do anything for me, I'm afraid.

I mean, was there even *any* nudity?



That glaring flaw aside, scenes appeared very random. The lip sync didn't work on "it's quiet now", although it was a valiant effort to recover by using the exact same clip three seconds later for the next line of dialogue. It didn't work that time either, but I suppose you did double the overall probability that it would sync with something, so I can follow your reasoning there.

I would check out the guides regarding compression - WMV is decidedly rubbish, and will turn a lot of people off downloading your vid.

Furthermore, inuyasha is decidedly rubbish, and will turn a lot of people off downloading your vid.

The sound quality was properly rough, and if I commanded any respect in this community, me saying that would probably turn a lot of people off downloading your vid. Luckily I don't, so we'll say no more, eh?

Anyway, please take the above as constructive abuse, brought on by excessive imbibing of fermented barley products. And remember, whatever happens, you will never be as bad at editing as me."

(End)

[godix]

Just a couple generalized responses

1) No one ever said to ignore technical aspects. If someones AR is wrong or the video is interlaced or whatever by all means tell the person and tell them how to fix it in the future. Then move on. There's no reason to dwell on the technical and there's no reason the technical is all you talk about. The technical things are part of videos and deserve discussing as well, but they're only a part and the org has a great tendency to pretend they're the entire video. After all Casablanca is Casablanca no matter if it's on a grainy old film stock or if it's been worked over for a bright shiny new HD release.

2) Perhaps I shouldn't have used the phrase artistic since I didn't want this to become an indepth art critic thing. I just mean when someone sits down to edit a video they have some idea of what they want to achieve, although in many cases it's a pretty vague idea. It might be to make people laugh, to show a romance, or in some cases to make cool effects. I think when we comment on videos we should consider this and let the person know what we did or didn't find funny, romantic, or kick ass effects. Yes, sometimes it's hard to see what the editor was after but usually you can tell. When watching a video that's labeled as a comedy it's pretty safe to say they wanted you to laugh while the video marked sentimental probably wasn't going for the lulz. To bring up the pretentious art critic thing, you don't look at the Mona Lisa and discuss it in the same way you discuss Picasso. The artists were going for different things so you discuss their success/failure differently.

3) Jaddzia mentioned something that I think is yet another sign there's a problem. She mentioned her friend doesn't give feedback because he isn't an editor. The way the site does critiques now strongly encourages people who don't know the technical crap to shut up and hide in their corner. I think that when watching a video anyone has an opinion. Some are more informed on technical than others, some are more analyzing of 'artistic' critique methods than others. But no one should feel their opinion is worthless and currently that's exactly what the org indicates to non-tech people.

[The Origonal Head Hunter]

tl;dr. My two dollars worth.

What is first needed for giving good opinions/critiques on a video is the ability to honestly tell the person what sucks about the video. If you don't have the heart to do that, or you feel it might upset the person and so don't give honest feedback, don't give the opinion.
What you need second to give a good opinion is a base knowledge of AMVs on which to go off. By this, I mean if all you have ever seen is 2 Naruto AMVs on boochsack, you really need to broaden horizins before opping. What you have seen as good in many videos, and what you have seen as bad in many videos, all makes a world of difference on scoring.
When asking for an opinion, one should know they are asking for an honest look at their work: the good, the bad, and the sucky. If you want ego-stroking, we have a website you can go to for that. Expect love, expect hate, expect the motherf***cking Spanish Inquistion. Deal with what you get and learn what you can from it. Be rewatching the video as you read the opinion or critique, see what is being pointed out and what you could do to change your ways of editting.
The opinioner should go into as much detail as they feel is nessecary, not letting their feelings on the anime or song affect scoring. Keep it as objective as possible. Objectivity is nigh impossible in some categories, but that's ok, it's not needed in all of them. Above all, be honest and helpful, since that is what the opinion is about. Helping the editor learn from their mistakes. And don't forget, there's always a little good in a video; total negativity discourages an editor, let them know what they did RIGHT as well as wrong.

That's my two dollars, now give me my change and receipt.