Anti-Trolling rule needs to take affect more?

[qyll]

Y'all are mad cause Baka and Vivi keep on winning contests. As an AMV watcher and guy who goes to one anime con a year, I wanna see the best videos out there, and if another editors' feelings get hurt because they didn't make it in, I will drink those tears while eating a peanut butthurt and u jelly sandwich. I agree with Bashar on all accounts.

Fan pandering? I fail to see how this is a bad thing as you're putting on a show for fans (most of who also attend cons once a year). Why not please them? If you want to see fresh, avant-garde videos, then watch em yourself at home. There are plenty out there.

For the record, Baka, I love your videos, and keep doing what you're doing.

[l33tmeatwad]

I think personally a 10 win limit is acceptable as at that pointeven for the best videos that sweep contests should be around 4 months old at that point. Most contests couldn't implement a 6 month rule and it really would cut down on the amount they receive, so limiting wins to a still ridiculous amount like 10 would be the best IMO. Even for the busiest editors, by the time you win 10 awards with a video you'd have had plenty of time to get another video made and into the convention circuit.

From there I wanted to submit to more contests. I discovered animemusicvideos.org and thought it was outdated, but if it had the information I needed, it would have to do. The next contest was AX 2013. My third video made the preshow, but not the finals. I was disappointed. Why did these videos make it into the finals and not mine? What was the difference? So I studied the finalists and learned from them. How did they do this effect? How did they do this transition? How did they make their video flow so well?

From there I continued to make videos & submitted to every contest I could, reading the rules three times over for each one. I would win some and lose some, but everytime I lost, I learned from it. I would try to be as unbiased and analytical as I could, and continued comparing my videos to the winners.

I think it's good you want to learn and get better and looking at (most) winners will give you good direction as to what you can improve. That said, the method of improving does put you at risk of picking up bad editing habits as audiences don't really care about editing quality so you might end up picking up tacky techniques that aren't really good editing. This is where the org comes in, I know it seems a little hostile, but there are a lot of editors on here that know what they are talking about and are willing to help give you feedback to help you improve much faster than trial and error. I think you have a lot of potential as an editor, but unfortunately you are less likely to listen to quality advice from people on the org due to the bad first impression you got.

I had started this hobby on a whim, and it got to the point where others were praising me. I ended up winning some furniture , and checked the AX 2014 thread. Now before this, I rarely read the forums of The Org and was in for a big shock (as troy would say, "Drama "). I was accused of submitting "Troll Videos", videos that have won multiple awards, pandering to the audience, and getting cheap laughs.

Was I wrong? Were my videos bad? Was I not supposed to send my videos to every contest I could? I thought the point of a contest was to compete with other videos. I was confused. What had I done wrong. I started to feel like I didn't deserve to win.

Then I thought back to the contest. The audience loved it, was something wrong with that? No.
I'll continue making videos, continue to submit winning videos, continue to get better and learn from my losses until I'm satisfied with myself. I don't care what these people on that forum say. As long as I make a video that I'm satisfied with, I'm sure other people will love it too.

There will be those that praise you as well as the haters, but both can be a source of feedback. As for trolling, I've been guilty of that myself before and I personally like to try and keep it under a certain limit because I care about others in the community and want others (like yourself) to get into the hobby and have fun. When you video wins does it mean that it's the best video? Not always, there are ways to play the crowd as they are there to see their favorite anime to music. Is there anything wrong with using popular sources? No, but if your goal is to improve as an editor then this can stunt your improvement as audience members voting does not mean your technicals were always spot on. You definitely are a great editor, but you are at that point where only feedback from a variety of different editors can really help you to improve (and when I say editors, that is NOT just limited to AMV editors, just video editors in general). You're at that point ShinAMV was at his first year he hit the convention scene big and I would love to see you get the advice and feedback he received that really boosted the quality of his works tenfold.

Then again when I started making AMVs back in the 90s and even if I didn't pay nice with some creators I showed them respect. When I had a video that won a couple times I retired it and made something new.... why? because I didn't want to be a DICK and because the video won / was recognized.

You've been editing longer than I've been alive, but I don't see how you think you showed them respect. If your video is good enough to keep winning, then it should keep winning. By removing your video from contests you're slapping the other editors in the face.
"I've beaten you a few times so I won't submit anymore. I know my video is better than yours, now you can win." How is that a contest? You're going to pity other editors and "let" them win? No. If they want to win, they have to make a better video, it's as simple as that. Not everyone wins a gold metal in the Olympics.

Unfortunately that's a bad comparison, most editors know if they really wanted to win they could just do certain things to pander and win easily even without great editing. Keep in mind the contests we participate in are MOSTLY audience voted and a win doesn't necessarily mean the video is better, just means the audience liked it more and was most likely familiar with the source. Believe it or not, some editors love editing with sources that people aren’t familiar with so that they can expose them to new anime, unfortunately those types of videos do poorly at conventions even if they are the best video. If this really were like the Olympics, the best sports to compare it to would be objective ones like Ice Skating which is judged by PROFESSIONAL judges, not the audience...so your analogy is a pretty bad one.

Regarding the topic of this thread, yes I think freshness rules are good. Limiting videos because they won a certain number of rewards however, seems wrong. A contest is just that, a contest. I understand this is a site for editors, but these contests aren't for us, it's for the people who love anime. By "dumbing down" the competition, you're lying to the audience.

You show them subpar videos saying these are the best videos competing to win, when in reality the bar is much higher. If someone at a convention went to an amv contest to learn what an amv was and they saw subpar videos, they may think "oh, so its just anime clips set to a song. Ok" (Excluding premier videos in this context). But if the videos competing have won awards before and compete they may be inspired to create their own.

Limiting videos is tough, but since you apparently haven’t' seen behind the curtain of contests (apparently) I guess you don't understand that there are often really good videos that just don't make the cut. Sadly, some coordinators are more about entertaining the audience that having a fair contest and put what they thing is more "entertaining for an audience" in over something that may be edited better. Sadly, if you limit the time, some videos that were truely great might not get their chance to shine simply because more people decided to edit Drama and the category was tough to get to finals for 6 months. Limiting the awards is tough too because it is nice to see videos that deserve to win get their due, and this is where there needs to be balance. If everyone submitted like you did, there would be roughly the same finalist list for an entire year and honestly that would be pretty boring for the community as very few videos would get exposure. I enjoy this hobby to have fun and experience that fun with the community as sharing with others is the best part to me. Stick around, make some friends, it's a great community to be a part of and honestly it just as fun to see friends win as it is to win yourself (sometimes )!

[Shin-AMV]

I just find it amusing that this debate comes up in force at least once a year for as long as I can remember and we're still talking in circles with each other. lol.

[MaboroshiStudio]

I just find it amusing that this debate comes up in force at least once a year for as long as I can remember and we're still talking in circles with each other. lol.

in the olden days... pre 2k people were much more vocal about it so it is funny to see history repeating itself

[Vlad G Pohnert]

In summary, the reason we are talking in circles is because everyone has their own opinion and perception. Perfectly ok.

Only solution to that would be to create global rules or "Standard" for AMV contests (I'm a Engineer so I deal with this kind of stuff all the time). This is just totally not practical nor desired so it will always remain a debate of opinions which is fine. To me there is no right or wrong answer here, just possible suggestions.

This does not mean this thread has not been constructive as it show a lot of different views on how to look at things from the perspective of creators and contest coordinators. At AWA, I just want to discuss everyone's view more to at least get a better understanding of what coordinators think of how things should or can work in contests.

Vlad

[Gene Starwind 21122]

Then again look who started the topic.

BakaOppai you make a great point. I'm learning from my mistakes and I'm taking the feedback I've been getting from the AWA judging. I've also been taking feedback from the editors and the audience. This debate was not about you, Vivifix or any of the other editors, but for the editors that are still doing pretty good but not making the cut. Also convention not having time to do an overflow screening.

So the fact that videos keep on showing up over and over in the finals, is truely amazing, because that means they are that good.

I try and make a new video once every 3 to 4 months. Usually when my new amv is finished that video it goes on the contest scene. Sometimes my second AMV if it has not won it's 3 awards yet may still make it arounds depening on how old it is.

[BasharOfTheAges]

@Qyll: Full disclosure - what I posted before is how I feel from a coordinator's point of view, and I need to. My con is small and there is plenty of competition for space in Main Events. If I'm not putting on a good show and thinking of my audience first, I'll lose my spot. It's a simple calculus. As a coordinator, I have the best prescreeners I can manage voting on stuff that gets in. Several of them are discerning by editor standards and I have a higher opinion of their tastes than of an audience in general, but their numbers often go along with audience results.

As a creator, on the other hand, I get disheartened when I lose to exact same field at every con all summer long, so I just stop submitting anywhere that I don't have a history of supporting.

My responses in this thread represented my priorities in running a contest. While trolling might hurt my chances of winning or competing and aggravate me personally, I don't think letting my personal bias alter how I run a contest would be an ethical choice. It would be self-serving and counter-productive to the goal of continuing to have a great contest that people want to attend.

[MaboroshiStudio]

@Qyll: Full disclosure - what I posted before is how I feel from a coordinator's point of view, and I need to. My con is small and there is plenty of competition for space in Main Events. If I'm not putting on a good show and thinking of my audience first, I'll lose my spot. It's a simple calculus. As a coordinator, I have the best prescreeners I can manage voting on stuff that gets in. Several of them are discerning by editor standards and I have a higher opinion of their tastes than of an audience in general, but their numbers often go along with audience results.

As a creator, on the other hand, I get disheartened when I lose to exact same field at every con all summer long, so I just stop submitting anywhere that I don't have a history of supporting.

My responses in this thread represented my priorities in running a contest. While trolling might hurt my chances of winning or competing and aggravate me personally, I don't think letting my personal bias alter how I run a contest would be an ethical choice. It would be self-serving and counter-productive to the goal of continuing to have a great contest that people want to attend.

Bashar... while we might not agree on some items I do want to say I heard your voice and your points. I have found this thread to be very helpful in what I am doing for MTAC where I gotten taken something from everyone. I didn't have time to wait until AWA to discuss with people as my boss wanted the rules. Still a conversation with the coordinators as well as editors at AWA will be good...

I also do agree for smaller cons where we don't have a dedicated AMV room it is a balancing act. I know I had to have a good show last year so I could ask for more space this year especially considering our space is so limited at MTAC. I couldn't even have a overflow showing last year which bummed me out. I am doing the 2 contest route and hopefully editors as well as the crowd will be pleased with the results.

[XStylus]

I was accused of [...] pandering to the audience, and getting cheap laughs.

All AMV-Hell vids kinda get accused of that. AMV creators grumble about em' (unless they're the one making them), but audiences love em'. But I do concur with the feeling that they're not suitable for competitions. I've decided not to accept them anymore at AX, though that's a decision that was in the making for over a year and wasn't a direct response to Animu Stew.

Was I wrong? Were my videos bad? Was I not supposed to send my videos to every contest I could? I thought the point of a contest was to compete with other videos. I was confused. What had I done wrong. I started to feel like I didn't deserve to win.

My thoughts in that regard used to be almost exactly the same as yours. I do understand the issue at hand though, in that I think other creators (who also send their vids to many cons) get tired of repeating the experience of their vid losing to the same vid over and over again like a death of a thousand cuts, so they get all like "enough already!" Thus some creators in "the community" follow a sort of gentleman's understanding that they won't send their vid to every con under the sun if they've already had a pretty good run at some events. But no, that's not something you're obligated to follow, but as a result it can make some people bitter.

I also think there were a few actions you did (probably innocently) that rubbed salt in the wound and gave the perception that you were kinda flaunting and rubbing noses in it. Not being around "the community" to squash any misconceptions probably didn't help, but the spreadsheet is what I frequently heard most prominently cited among various circles. "Look at me, I've got a hundreds of thousands of views and so many awards I need to keep a spreadsheet!" I feel fairly confident you didn't mean it that way, but that's how some people took it.

I'll continue making videos, continue to submit winning videos, continue to get better and learn from my losses until I'm satisfied with myself. I don't care what these people on that forum say. As long as I make a video that I'm satisfied with, I'm sure other people will love it too.

That's absolutely the correct attitude to have. Your competition methods aside, good work is good work. I was concerned that all the flak might push a good editor away.

It's rare that I see so much pushback against a successful editor, frankly. AMV folk are usually a rather welcoming bunch.

You've been editing longer than I've been alive, but I don't see how you think you showed them respect. If your video is good enough to keep winning, then it should keep winning. By removing your video from contests you're slapping the other editors in the face.

"I've beaten you a few times so I won't submit anymore. I know my video is better than yours, now you can win." How is that a contest? You're going to pity other editors and "let" them win? No. If they want to win, they have to make a better video, it's as simple as that. Not everyone wins a gold metal in the Olympics.

That's almost precisely and exactly the same argument I made back in 2009 when debating about whether AX should ever have an Otakon-like "troll" rule. Now that I run the event, my thoughts on it are a bit more nuanced now. I even briefly had a moment of weakness and considered a five-award max rule for next year (something I once thought I'd never even remotely consider), though ultimately I decided tighter freshness dates will do a better and fairer job, and are less work to enforce anyway.

[VivifxAMV]

People said my name 3 times so now I gotta show up. Straight up beetlejuicing this joint.

Alright I've been keeping up with this forum and not really saying much cause I felt all the same stuff was being said, and I already said my piece. But then BakaOppai posted and I wanted to jump in and say I agree with him on some points.

I asked my friend to record the crowd reaction of my videos. And when he showed me, I had a huge smile on my face. A dark room full of people watching my videos. They were laughing, they were clapping. I felt good. Then I found out that my third video got Best Action by the Judges & the Audience. This is fun, I want to get better, I want to keep going.

This I understand. I mean it's what makes contest editing so appealing. Seeing people love your work, laugh and smile. Just makes everything really satisfying and the hours of effort you put into a video worth while. Furthermore the thing that people need to remember (and it has been mentioned again and again) is that these convention contests are about the audience. Any action we take to change rules should be on THEIR behalf. Audiences dictate whether or not AMV contests can be a thing at a con. If we don't have an audience the panel is gonna get removed.

If you want to make changes for the good of the editors, effect contests that are for the editors. Pro,Akross, Big Contest.

I would bet if you surveyed and audience after a con, maybe 1 in a 1000 would be like "I was mad cause I've seen that video 3 times now!" No they are gonna be like "OH MAN X VIDEO WAS SO COOL."

Now you say "But Vivifx -- can't we make it about both of us? Editors and Audience's living in harmony!" Perhaps. And I'm not really sure how we could do that. I think the actions most of the cons are taking to cut down on freshness and such is probably the best way. But in the end still needs to be about the audience.

Contrary to popular belief, my life doesn't revolve around AMVs. Flooded with engineering classes and tutoring people in math, I've only had a few hours every week to edit. Making a "good" AMV takes months, even longer when I'm trying to learn something new.

This is another very valid point. A lot of us are still in school and don't have time to make hundreds of AMVs to submit to each convention. Some of us have jobs, portfolios to maintain or even families. I raised this point before but if you spend 8 months making a video versus a single video in a week or so, shouldn't you have more time to send it to conventions?

Personally I believe Quality is greater than Quanity. That's why I spend a year trying to make 2-3 really good videos I can send in lots of places. So that when I do win people are like well it was solidly edited / the audience enjoyed it. Honestly this is probably the first year I have achieved this cause my technicals are so bad.

So maybe people are mad cause videos that win are not technically that pretty. Or are just "poorly edited." No video is perfect and as the queen of bad technicals I am gonna say what is most important in a video is the heart. The intent and the concept. If you think the video that won isn't the best video, that's whatever. The audience thought so. And as stated before these contests are about the audience.

You show them subpar videos saying these are the best videos competing to win, when in reality the bar is much higher. If someone at a convention went to an amv contest to learn what an amv was and they saw subpar videos, they may think "oh, so its just anime clips set to a song. Ok" (Excluding premier videos in this context). But if the videos competing have won awards before and compete they may be inspired to create their own.

And I agree with this - although maybe not in so harsh a terms. It's a competition. I'm gonna agree with Qyll here, while some people genuinely want to change the freshness rules other people are just upset because they keep losing.

As a competitor I want to hardest AMVs I can have in my category. I want to be against Piece of Toast and Animu Stew while fighting Good Clean Fun and Oops Eren Did it again. That's competition. I don't want my win to be based on "Oh Well BakaOppai forgot to enter so looks like I finally got a shot." That's not really a competition.

Last year I won one award. And I was pretty upset after coming off the PonyNote high. So I went away for a while, didn't enter practically anything and spent a year making something new that I thought could be a valid competitor. And I came back and won. This is the first year I've gotten trolling flack, although I'm sure people were muttering it under their breath about PonyNote. This is also the first year I have had lots of people approach me online and at conventions telling me how much they love my work, how it's inspired them to start editing and asking if I will give them tutorials. This is the first year I actually burst into tears at a contest when I heard people screaming for Ship Happens, and the overwhelming positive feedback from audiences all over.

So tbh if it's gonna come down to making 1000s of people happy with my work vs a few people on the org who are just mad I keep showing up and taking awards like the hamburgler gonna go with the audience every time. And if that makes me a troll then slap some wacky hair on me and call me a trolli doll.

Honestly the problem with this whole freshness thing to me is that while I think rule change is good (I honestly think cons should try to change their rules every year just to see what works to best, keep things balanced) -- I think some people are really clamoring for this cause they are just upset they are not winning. Maybe that's not it but I'm calling it like I see it.

This year an editor (who shall remain nameless) approached me at a con and after congratulating me on winning so much with Anime 101. They then proceeded to attack me about how it wasn't fair that I was "preventing them from winning" and they were very very angry about that fact. I will say I was pleased this was actually said to my face instead of being muttered behind my back - but I was also quite taken aback and a little scared.

AMV Editing above all should be fun. We arn't getting paid this isn't our whole lives. For most it's a fun hobby. I understand when things get competitive things can get toxic. I think it was Troy who posted this on his facebook - but like instead of whining about how it's so unfair you keep losing to one video, make something new and go round two.

Lets not talk about Animu Stew, if that's what you're referring too (of course I'm going to make something I think people would laugh at, that's the point of comedy..).
I'm curious about your definition of "fan catering videos". Would you consider Vivifx's "Ship Happens" fan catering because it references different social media sites? What about Rider4Z's "The Optimist" because it uses One Piece, the most popular anime in japan? What about the song? If I use a popular song would you consider that fan pandering? How do you know if I'm catering to the fans, I could just like that song.

Last thing I want to address is this concept of pandering. To me it doesn't really exist because if you think about it everything is freaking pandering. We are taking music (most often music that some one else somewhere likes) and pairing it with anime and showing that to a bunch of Otakus. Like with that concept everyone's videos are already pandering.

Why is that comedy usually win's best in Show when it's Audience Choice? That's because in my opinion if you are gonna make a good comedy video you are connecting with the audience in some way, long before your video even sees the light of day. Humor is so flexible - everyone is gonna think something different is funny. For me I've said this before but I just start with what I think is funny. Honestly I don't really even think about the audience when editing. I am just like OH MAN if HARUHI was WRITING FAN FICTION. HAH. THIS AMUSES ME. And then it makes me ridiculously happy when I see my humor connect with other people's humor in the audience and they laugh. It is amazing when this sort of connection happens with a video that is both well edited and well executed. However this is most often not the case.

It bothers me that when a technically bad video wins a contest people are just like well it just pandered to the audience and clearly has no merit other than that. Like it's some sort of loose whore of a video that just slept with the audience's sense of humor to get cheap votes. We were all new editors once. We all didn't know about the Zarx and the encodes and how to properly lipsync something. All we had were our ideas and the idea that we wanted to make something that brought us joy and made us happy to be anime fans. Often times those videos belong to new editors and winning something means the world to them. And when they don't they probably belong to someone who is trying to get better or just doing the best they can.

I'm just really tired of the negativity being thrown around in this community. And I have been guilty of it from time to time. We are a bunch of geeks making music videos with anime for goodness sake. If you are really getting that upset about it maybe you should take a break for a bit. This community should be about trying to better ourselves so we can make better videos to share with our friends and the world. Not about petty squabbles about who deserved to win what and people who are the ultimate trolls and should be taken down. Because at the end of the day no matter how much you accuse someone of a troll all you are doing is making more negativity and that person is probably still gonna do their thing.

TL;DR
Making AMVS should be fun - if you are upset about losing repeatedly to the same video stop whining make something new. Audience based contests should be about the audience so rule changes should reflect what is good for them. Changes should be made but need to make sure they are being made for the RIGHT reasons. Or honestly just change it up, see how it impacts the next year and then if it doesn't work change it again.