etiquette of criticism

[seasons]

I get the feeling that a lot of people here will only watch AMVs made by their friends, but surely just as many other viewers will make skimming through the announcements forum in search of new AMVs a big part of their experience here. It's understandable to stick to videos that one will expect to enjoy -- just based on sources or video genre, among other factors -- after all you've only got so much time to spend on this stuff, might as well stick to what you know and tend to enjoy the most. Or maybe you're one of those viewers who'll watch anything at all. Either way...

When you eventually watch an AMV that doesn't work for you, one that bores you or that you simply hate and can't help it, are you inclined to post your honest feelings about it? Or is that actually a rude/inconsiderate move? It's easy to say that editors who post videos in that forum are automatically opening themselves up to criticism, and that they should know this going into it. Maybe they should, but that's never really been what that forum is about and I've ended up regretting half of the negative comments I've ever made in that forum because they were received so poorly that they didn't end up serving any kind of constructive purpose. Obviously, I've tried not to be very rude to anyone, or at least I think I've tried. Some editors didn't see it that way. All I can do is try to be mindful of what I'm posting, but it's gotten to the point where I find myself tiptoeing around every point I want to make, lest I start drama and make enemies with people here when I'm just trying to start a conversation or keep one going (I have zero evidence for this but I continue to naively persist on believing that forum activity is "good" for the community).

Lately I'd seen a number of posts that made me feel like this place was (re-)establishing the kind of atmosphere that made negative criticism acceptable (even if that only constitutes about 5% of the posts in that forum), but I don't know, maybe it's not even worth it and it's better to let a thread (and the forum as a whole) just stagnate and die than to post anything that's not wholly positive praise for a video. Do you just avoid negative critiques when it comes to people you don't know? What do you stand to get out of those kind of posts, anyway?

Who knows if this makes any sense, it's easily the longest thing I've ever written on a mobile device.

[UnluckyArtist]

I think generally no criticism is better than negative criticism.. in that sense I think this place here is doing better than that 'more active but meaner' atmosphere it had in the past. And it seems like viewers are more hesitant now to even watch something much less talk about it. So there might already be 100 videos with the same source and new one pops up so no one really cares. There's also been evidence of constructive critique being given and the author not using the advice, and with a person's general taste, and not wanting to come off harsh or pointless there's lots of reasons why someone wouldn't want to give something back.

Now I think one has to express that they want critique or that they want to get better at something for any actual criticism because it seems all the users here who would speak their mind on every little video have stopped logging on..

[CrackTheSky]

I don't know quite how to structure my response so I'll just start by saying that I determine what I'm going to watch from the Announcements forum based on a few things: first of all, is it something I'm likely to enjoy? Does it have music and/or anime that I like? If it has one or the other, I'll probably watch it. If not, is it by an editor whose past works I recognize (and preferably liked?) If so, I'll give it a shot. If it's neither of these things, is the editor asking for honest feedback? If so, I'm much more likely to watch, even if it has an anime and/or song choice that I detest.

If none of these criteria are met, I will probably not give the thread a second look -- unless someone else whose opinion I respect has posted positive things in the thread. Other than that, it's pretty likely that the editor is someone who hasn't made anything worthwhile in the past, or who doesn't give a crap what anyone here has to say -- i.e. they just post and run, using the .org as one more avenue for exposure.

Now, assuming it's gotten to the point where I've watched the video, I will usually post my thoughts, regardless of whether they're positive or negative, if I feel I have enough to say about it. I've gotten (I feel) pretty good at posting criticism in a constructive manner, and I'll usually do that if I didn't like a video too much and can point out objective ways I feel the editor can improve. There are a few instances where certain videos have really, really pissed me off just because of what said videos represent to the editing culture at large (not going to get into this now, in b4 "AMVs are serious business lol"), and in those cases I've either refrained from posting in the announcement thread, or have posted very simple and non-detailed comments because I knew there would be no way for me to say something without edging into insult territory, and I really want to avoid that if at all possible for reasons stated in seasons' original post.

All that said, any editor, especially a new editor, is infinitely more likely to get a very detailed and thorough response from me if they make it clear that they are trying to improve and explicitly ask where they messed up. I can't tell you how many videos I've watched and commented on purely because the editor seemed eager to learn, that I would have avoided at all costs otherwise -- I love seeing that in new editors and do all I can to encourage that kind of attitude, because the opposite "hey I'm new I think I'm awesome check out this AMV" inevitably leads to the same old types of videos being made over and over without the editor pushing himself in any way. I've seen it too often and I hate it.

I've gotten many, many PMs over the last couple years from random editors asking for beta feedback and such because they've noticed that I give that constructive feedback that is sometimes absent in the Announcement forum. I wish people weren't so afraid to say what they really think of videos, and I also wish editors weren't so sensitive to criticism. It doesn't seem to be as bad as it was many years ago, but I rarely see people commenting that they don't like videos, except in veiled and often flowery language. I'm not saying that you need to be harsh, but at least be honest, and if you take the time to watch someone's video that you found in the Announcement forum, have the decency to leave some feedback, even if it's very little, and I'd even say especially if it's a video you didn't end up liking. Nobody's going to get better if they think they're already good enough, and the vast majority of editors will be happy that someone around here watched their video and that it moved them in one direction or another enough for you to leave a comment.

[Cenit]

I'm happy about every reply that i get because it bumps up my thread to stick around a while longer. I hate being ignored. To me that means pity and i don't need that. I do however not care much about other announcements on the org these days. I mostly check out AMV News and Upload channels like Vermillion for new releases. If by chance i ever check out the org announcement board then i'm mostly looking for friends of mine OR cool people that replied on my videos before. Because most of the time i feel inclined to return the favor.

Btw the main reason for my reply here is because seasons recently commented on my AMVs a couple of times. Thanks buddy!

[CrackTheSky]

If by chance i ever check out the org announcement board then i'm mostly looking for friends of mine OR cool people that replied on my videos before. Because most of the time i feel inclined to return the favor.

Btw the main reason for my reply here is because seasons recently commented on my AMVs a couple of times. Thanks buddy!

That's a good point. You never know when your making a comment -- positive or negative -- might spark a discussion that could lead to a friendship. I've made many friends from the .org this way.

[seasons]

I think generally no criticism is better than negative criticism.. in that sense I think this place here is doing better than that 'more active but meaner' atmosphere it had in the past. And it seems like viewers are more hesitant now to even watch something much less talk about it. So there might already be 100 videos with the same source and new one pops up so no one really cares.

I arrived here just after the worst decline in activity back in the late 2000s, I always felt like I missed out on the best times here and wonder how we might bring just a little bit of that activity and interaction back here. That's probably driving me to post here and there even when I know I shouldn't or when I actually don't have anything really worth saying. Maybe that's even happening right now!

Also, I'm not posting here to complain about people who can't take criticism, because I don't know if my criticism has always been as completely kind and fair as I've always been sure it was. And I regularly find myself reacting to criticism in embarrassingly bad ways that I never knew possible (not really with AMVs but in every other aspect of my life). This always applies to criticism that I see as "unfair" but quite often to criticism that's (in hindsight) extremely fair and constructive criticism. If I can't tell them apart, how can I expect anyone else to?

I wish people weren't so afraid to say what they really think of videos, and I also wish editors weren't so sensitive to criticism. It doesn't seem to be as bad as it was many years ago, but I rarely see people commenting that they don't like videos, except in veiled and often flowery language. I'm not saying that you need to be harsh, but at least be honest, and if you take the time to watch someone's video that you found in the Announcement forum, have the decency to leave some feedback, even if it's very little, and I'd even say especially if it's a video you didn't end up liking. Nobody's going to get better if they think they're already good enough, and the vast majority of editors will be happy that someone around here watched their video and that it moved them in one direction or another enough for you to leave a comment.

I definitely approach the work of a new editor differently than anyone who I know has been around the hobby for a while, and I certainly go about responding to their work in a different way than I would with someone who's been around here for a while. I like to believe that people enjoy getting completely non-mandatory feedback but after a lot of time on the forums and dropping quick comments (yes, I know they're anonymous) and opinions (sometimes I wonder just how much of the userbase here is completely unaware of their existence), I've come to the conclusion that this isn't quite as important to people as I always used to think it was. I'd love to help other editors improve, but unless it's someone specifically asking for help or advice, I've found that doesn't always play out like I'd hoped.

I'm happy about every reply that i get because it bumps up my thread to stick around a while longer. I hate being ignored.

On one hand I'm not really sure if getting feedback really means anything to anyone anymore, yet I hate watching videos slip by with no replies. I'd rather bump the announcement thread of a video I didn't care for than just watch it fall off the first page and get locked before anyone else can say anything. Rest assured that wasn't on my mind when I've posted in your video's thread(s).

I suppose that I wouldn't have ever started this thread if I hadn't read this post over a month ago, which I probably shouldn't even bring up because I don't want this thread to become a referendum on the opinion you expressed in it (I still haven't watched that AMV and can't comment on it), but that was the first time in a while that I'd read anything like that around here and it definitely got me thinking about things.

[exkcal]

I agree with all of this. It is important to criticism to be constructive! Seasons and others critique on my last project really taught me a lot and made me know what was wrong with my stuff. Sure hearing some negative stuff hurts but it is sometimes necessary. Overall feedback on this forum really pushes me to try harder and try to have less 'mistakes'.

[The_McLaughlin]

When I do go through the announcement thread (all be it I haven't recently since the few projects I've worked on and finished lately haven't been anime related so I haven't been on here in a while just because I haven't anything new to contribute and as a result site activity for me has declined, that and I got sick and had to get surgey and was out for a month because of that, working on some new stuff here now so hopefully my site activity will pick up here soon) unless it's a song or an anime that I really don't like I typically just start going down the list and watching anything so long as it has a streaming version available either here or youtube, or elsewhere that will stream them. If it has negatvies I'll post them, but I do try to find something positive as well to kind of help balance it out even if it's something as simple as the song felt like it fit the show really well.
I personally love when people tear my stuff apart, I'm never going to learn unless someone does. If I keep getting the same negative comments over and over again then I know it's something that I need to work on for the next one (like non-linear story telling... I struggle with that apparently and eventually I'll get it right! I must fight my brain which tells me things won't make sense if I cut them up too much, bad brain bad.) Usually I'll just send my stuff to Yue over skype because I know that she will tell me when it's bad or not, but I tend to get very little from the annoucement thread, i'm lucky to even get a comment most of the time over there. Same thing with the opinion thread it seems unless I post in the free opinion threads no one ever wants to do an even trade, and even then depending on who does the free opinon I've had opinions that bassically just tell me they liked the song choice for the anime and that was it, and it wasn't helpfull.
So I guess if you're worried about sounding too mean you could try just balancing it out a bit with a few comments of what you found were done well. I usually find I can at the very least find one good thing about the video. I usually worry I sound too arrogant when I make comments since I don't really view myself as all that spectacular of an editor. I'm an editor who's trying to get better ever so slowly and as a result I always have that who am I to tell you what's right and wrong feeling everytime I watch/comment on someone else's videos, espicially if it's someone who I know and admire their work, which if that's the case there is more likely to be a comment of I liked it good job or just no comment at all... I panic easily and that's my fall back that or just leaving.

[TritioAFB]

I'm with Cenit:it's kinda discourageous having no replies and your thread locked with no replies at all. I'm not against criticism if you justify why a video is good or bad through a quick resume of video, because comments like: your amv sucks and stuff like that isnt very helpful

[The_McLaughlin]

I'm with Cenit:it's kinda discourageous having no replies and your thread locked with no replies at all. I'm not against criticism if you justify why a video is good or bad through a quick resume of video, because comments like: your amv sucks and stuff like that isnt very helpful

At the same time though comments like "I really liked, good job" and that's it aren't very helpful either. If your only constantly told what you do well you'll never know what you do poorly and thus can never improve. I'm not saying that you should be completly rude and comment something if all you have to say is "your amv sucks" but only positive everything is good best amv of all time comments don't help just as much as the super negative ones.