Which Editing Program Should I Use??

[LordNog]

Okie doke. Thanks for the input guys. I think I might go with Vegas just because I'm a diehard Sony lover. But who knows Adobe Premeire might work out better for me. I'll have to get the demos of both and see for mysef. Thanks again!!

[Phantasmagoriat]

Skittles was done in Magix, was it not?

yes, +Photoshop +Particle Illusion

Okie doke. Thanks for the input guys. I think I might go with Vegas just because I'm a diehard Sony lover. But who knows Adobe Premeire might work out better for me. I'll have to get the demos of both and see for mysef. Thanks again!!

Maybe I'm a tad late, but ima post this anyway...

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Before you pick a program:
- Be weary of the version of the program you are getting. Some lack certain features.
- Premiere Pro has all the features unlocked.
- Premiere Elements (consumer grade) is very gibbled (framerate/settings control, effects etc...)
- Certain versions of Vegas (like Pro) have masktools build into the program. Others don't.
- Be aware of how widely used a program is for finding online tutorials/support
- Like others mentioned, check out the free trials

And here is my very biased opinion of some NLE's (I use Magix, so that in mind, like Yue warned about...):

Magix

• ...is kind-of limited in terms of effects (no mask tools for cutting out characters frame-by-frame), but you can always use GIMP (free) and save using .png format that retains the alpha/transparent channel of the image. So that's not a problem. One of the biggest advantages of Magix is the interface and controls are really intuitive, and there are hotkey labels for almost everything: Zoom in/out using ctrl + mouse wheel... or you can jump to specific zoom-levels with ctrl+1...2...3... . Cut simply by pressing the 't' button. Fades are created in a split second using the handles on the corners of objects in the timeline. Layer stack-order is in reverse which is better for workflow (IMO). Comes with automatic scene detection/splitting simply via right-click. If you are using an editing-friendly format (like UT Video), scrubbing the timeline is lightning fast (My impression is on par with Premiere Pro).
  So for raw editing with effects handled externally, Magix is a champ.
  • Price: ~$60 and from what I could tell, it's not much different from the Plus version (~$100) or even the Pro X version (~$400), at lease for making AMVs. Keep in mind it doesn't have as wide a user-base, so it's not as easy to find tutorials or get support if you need it.

Vegas

• ...has controls almost the same as Magix, (just make sure Vegas can recognize your mouse wheel button for zooming in/out... or it will be really difficult to navigate the timeline) and for Vegas Pro, you can even customize hotkeys for certain functions, or create them if you know how to write scripts (like jumping to zoom-levels, which Vegas does not have out of the box). Even if using an editing-friendly-format, and disabling resample/deinterlace/field order and using different preview modes.... I've experienced Vegas still has minor lag when scrubbing the timeline compared to Magix or Premiere-- however RAM preview kind-of makes up for that: The timeline might not be as fast, but the preview (even with full effects) will be liquid smooth just by hitting shift+b, depending on how much RAM your computer has. Does not have automatic scene detection for some reason. Has a wide user-base.
  So for a range of simple to advanced tasks in one package, Vegas is a good choice, depending on the version you get.
  • Price: ~$50-100. The Pro version is ~$600, and I found it to be very feature-rich compared to the consumer-grade versions (like masktools, hotkey assignment, and a wide range of key-framed effects)

Premiere/AE (After Effects):

• [The following has been crossed out to avoid providing misleading information. I certainly have not mastered Premiere, so keep in mind what I have written is based on my limited experiences with the program]...I really don't like the interface. You can supposedly do the most with this combo (I get the impression Vegas Pro can do almost as much aside from semi-automatic masking). The thing is, [for me] it feels a little more tiring to do simple tasks like cutting and fading. If you don't want to switch between the Razor/Selection tool there is no one-touch cut button, unless you set a hotkey for it; and there are no one-step linear fades either (like other programs where you just drag the corner of the clip) Instead you got to use keyframes, which can give you more control of your fades, but isn't as convenient as some other programs. Some people may like this, some people may not, and it could take some time getting used to the program to learn it's advantages. But based on my experiences, Premiere is not for me (though I do play with it from time to time). As a suggestion, if you are more comfortable using another program, you can always do your basic editing with the program of your choice, then use AE by itself afterwards... which is what I recommend doing... (it is called 'After' Effects for a reason; it's more of an effects-compositing program than an NLE). Things just won't integrate as seamlessly as when using Premiere with AE (Premiere can export it's timeline directly to AE without needing to render an intermediate... although if you use Vegas with DebugMode Frameserver, you can frameserve your Vegas timeline to AE... which can help... but it's not a perfect workaround... ).
  So if there are certain advanced things you can't seem to do in another program, Premiere/AE seems like the way to go.
  • Price: Expen$ive (~$800 for the full version which you would want...)

Final Cut Pro:

• ...I don't have a Mac to test FCP; and besides, Mac's can't natively run important tools like AviSynth, etc... amongst all sorts of other useful windows-based tools.
  So if you are chained to a Mac, use FCP.
  • Price: ~$300 (down from $1000. Oh Apple, you have such good marketing gimmicks >.>)

DebugMode Wax:

• ...at the moment, I would say this is the closest thing to a free program for making AMV's. Unfortunately, it's more of an effects-compositing program with the layered-interface similar to AE (if you have 100 clips, you need 100 layers... or at least that's the way it seems to work...), so I don't know if you want to use only Wax for making AMV's. Also you are pretty much forced to make clips with VirtualDub beforehand unless you really want to trim each layer separately in the timeline. Alternatively you could serve trim() scripts natively with AviSynth if you know how. I suppose, if you are very tech-oriented, this could actually be quite powerful-- even has Dynamic RAM preview.
  So if you are on a budget, and don't mind a high learning curve, DebugMode Wax is a viable option.
  • Price: Free

Personally I use Magix, but I'm currently working on customizing Vegas Pro to make it work the way Magix does (I already have some custom scripts for creating zoom-level-hotkeys with ctrl+1..2..3; and I'm working on some automatic scene detection with AviSynth. I still haven't figured out a way to fully disable the stupid loop region though... ._.)

~Phan

[TritioAFB]

Man I´ve always wanted someone to explain the differences between the programs. I remembered when I first tested Magix and then passed to Vegas, but I didn´t know many points you mentioned. Now I feel like I should return to Magix

[Phantasmagoriat]

Man I´ve always wanted someone to explain the differences between the programs. I remembered when I first tested Magix and then passed to Vegas, but I didn´t know many points you mentioned. Now I feel like I should return to Magix

Well, you could retry the program, and after using Vegas, Magix should seem pretty similar--unless you are going from Vegas Pro to Magix, in which case Magix will seem way too basic. There's a world of difference between Vegas Pro and Magix. Even "Vegas Studio HD Platinum" or whatever fancy name it has is nothing compared to the Pro version. So if you like doing effects, Magix will feel very dull. Otherwise for basic raw-editing it works quite well.

[BasharOfTheAges]

Haha. Sorry Yue, I should have read that more carefully. XD

Wait - why would you bother reading other people's posts on topics? If we all did shit like that there wouldn't be hundreds of threads in this section of the forums asking the exact same questions over and over; and then where would we be?

[Pwolf]

The thing is, it'll take you like... 10 steps to do the simplest tasks, while in Magix/Vegas it will probably just take 1 step.

Like what? You either don't know how to use premiere or you are making things up.

[Phantasmagoriat]

The thing is, it'll take you like... 10 steps to do the simplest tasks, while in Magix/Vegas it will probably just take 1 step.

Like what? You either don't know how to use premiere or you are making things up.

Well, you are probably right that I don't know how to use Premiere (since I stopped using it after many annoyances) So yeah, I said my review was quite biased, and I was exaggerating a bit. But from what I recall, even making a cut in premiere was a pain:
(Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this)

To make a cut:

In Premiere:
For arguments sake, if you decided to use the razor tool (which you don't need to with hotkeys, I know) you would have to
1.scrub to where you want to make your cut,
2.select the Razor tool,
3.move your cursor to where you want to make your cut
4.make your cut
5.re-select the Selection tool (if you want to move your clip)

In Magix/Vegas:
1.scrub to where you want to make your cut
2.hit the T or S key (or Split Button)

You can do the same thing in Premiere, with the hotkey: ctrl+shift+k <--but who in their right mind made this the default hotkey for making a cut? A triple combo? Awkwardly on the right side of the keyboard? Even if I can change the defaults to something better, that's not a step I should have to take. On top of that, it doesn't seem like you can cut a single track without also cutting the above/below tracks as well. As the default function for doing the most common task in editing, this seems flawed. And that's not even mentioning After Effects (You can't cut? only trim? what is this?)


To make a fadein/fadeout:

In Magix/Vegas:
1.In the timeline, drag the corner of the clip until it is the fade duration you want.

In Premiere:
1.go to the effects panel
2.Dissolve
3.Dip to black
4.Drag effect onto start/end of clip
5.Extend your fade to the length you want
?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be another way to do this, aside from using rubber bands, but that's equally as complicated in comparison to Magix/Vegas. Crossfades seem to work in the same needlessly complicated way-- but with Magix/Vegas/(and even Windows Movie Maker) you just drag your clip until it overlaps with another clip. At this point I stopped using Premiere since anything more complicated than one step to do a simple fade seems counter-productive. Even if it just takes 2 steps, that's double the work over the course of an entire AMV. Coupled with no waveform/thumbnails by default, I find all these little extraneous steps momentarily break my train of thought as I'm editing, and that's the last thing I want. It's okay if I pre-planned everything and I just want to piece it all together (any program would be fine in that case), but if I just want to have fun and throw something together (which is usually the case), Premiere seems really cumbersome. It's like I work with the program more than I work with the footage itself... ofc I could be wrong about all the above (and I welcome any corrections), but that's the impression I get whenever I try to use Premiere.

[LantisEscudo]

On top of that, it doesn't seem like you can cut a single track without also cutting the above/below tracks as well. As the default function for doing the most common task in editing, this seems flawed.

The default behavior is cutting a single track. If you hold Shift, it cuts all the tracks at that point.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be another way to do this, aside from using rubber bands, but that's equally as complicated in comparison to Magix/Vegas. Crossfades seem to work in the same needlessly complicated way-- but with Magix/Vegas/(and even Windows Movie Maker) you just drag your clip until it overlaps with another clip. At this point I stopped using Premiere since anything more complicated than one step to do a simple fade seems counter-productive. Even if it just takes 2 steps, that's double the work over the course of an entire AMV.

I just crossfade to nothing. Control-D, adjust length to suit. And the Magix/Vegas way would drive me nuts, since I usually let my clips run on a little longer that I have to to fill the time I want (to make sure I'm not running short and leaving black space), then clip off the extra by dropping the next piece over them. With M/V, I'd constantly have to be removing the crossfades.

Coupled with no waveform/thumbnails by default

Not quite true. They display by default on the first track; to display them on other tracks, you just have to click the triangle on the appropriate track to view the full tracks at the left edge of the timeline. You can do this before you even start editing.

Honestly, though, so much of this is personal taste and how you prefer to work. I know Adobe and Magix make a free trial available, I'm pretty sure Sony does, too. Grab them, try them out, and see which works best for you. It's the result that matters, not the tool that was used to make it.

[Pwolf]

To make a cut:

In Premiere:
For arguments sake, if you decided to use the razor tool (which you don't need to with hotkeys, I know) you would have to
1.scrub to where you want to make your cut,
2.select the Razor tool,
3.move your cursor to where you want to make your cut
4.make your cut
5.re-select the Selection tool (if you want to move your clip)

In Premiere:
1.scrub to where you want to make your cut,
2.Press the "C" key,
4.make your cut
5.Press the "V" key

Of course this is just modifying your example to be more efficient based on that specific scenario (scrubbing, making a cut, and then going back to a state where you can move the clip). If we want to just cut a clip, you can just do:

1.Press the "C" Key
2.Make your cut

And if you aren't moving clips, you can cut all you want without scrubbing whereas, according to your instructions for Magix/Vegas, every time you make a cut, you have to scrub to where you want to make it. You also don't HAVE to switch back to the selection tool after you make a cut, you can scrub to where you want to make a cut and then make the cut (assuming you already have the razor tool selected, that's only two steps). Not to mention, since you're keen on hotkeys, the "C" and "V" keys are right next to each other so going back and forth between the two don't require a whole lot of extra energy.

In Magix/Vegas:
1.scrub to where you want to make your cut
2.hit the T or S key (or Split Button)

aieli ileia: I just selected a clip
aieli ileia: and pressed S
aieli ileia: it didn't do anything

I had to ask Ileia what those keys actually do because you didn't add a step for selecting a clip on the timeline so for all i know, S and T cut all the clips on the timeline. When I used Magix I never used those keys.

To make a fadein/fadeout:

In Premiere:
1.go to the effects panel
2.Dissolve
3.Dip to black
4.Drag effect onto start/end of clip
5.Extend your fade to the length you want
?

Way more involved and not necessary. We use key-frames... while using the Selection Tool:

1. Hold Ctrl and click along the Opacity line on the clip to add a keyframe
2. Repeat as necessary
3. click and drag key-frames up or down to change opacity

This gives you way more freedom and flexibility then the dissolve transition. It's not complicated at all, it's right there. Might take some extra steps but the added flexibility gives you more options then just a simple linear fade like in Magix.

Point being, it doesn't take 10 more steps to do the same thing (assuming S and T keys actually do something in magix) in premiere. At best, it takes the same amount or an extra step. Your instructions are bias (and incomplete I'm guessing also) because you are comparing a product you know how to use with one you don't (and have negative experience with). Instead of giving out bad and exaggerated information, just don't give out the information in the first place. That or give out good information.

Magix is a great program for the reason you have already specified. It's also great because simple tasks (like cutting a clip... in theory, and fading in and out) are faster. However, you don't have flexibility. That's where programs like Premiere come in. Simple tasks, like the ones we've been discussing can be done differently and in a way that's more efficient then the way Magix does it. As I mentioned before, if you need to make quick cuts that aren't going to be timed to anything, press "C" and cut away. If you need to make multiple cuts that are timed, scrub and then cut, scrub and cut. You don't need to switch tools between actions. You can also change all the hotkeys to make things more efficient for you as an editor. This is what flexibility is. Flexibility with the tools you use and flexibility with your work flow. You aren't confined to the same task (scrub, press "S" [assuming it actually does something], scrub press "S"). It's flexible because it's for people who want or need it to be. That's why it's so expensive. If you don't need flexibility in your editing, don't spend the money. If you do, it's a good investment.

On top of that, the way you edit isn't the same as someone else, as already pointed out. You made things harder for yourself when you used premiere and didn't bother learning faster ways to do the same thing. Someone who doesn't know magix isn't going to know the fastest way to do something either. When I was talking to Ileia, she was telling me how she edited and its sounds very complicated and unnecessary to me, but that's how she does it and she's comfortable with it. So, the amount of steps it takes to complete a task doesn't make a program good or bad. Most of the time there are multiple ways to complete the same task.

After Effects shouldn't even be mentioned along side Premiere (or any of the other programs mentioned honestly). They are two completely different programs with two completely different uses. You shouldn't even touch AE until you've masted the basics of video editing.

[Phantasmagoriat]

In Premiere:
1.scrub to where you want to make your cut,
2.Press the "C" key,
4.make your cut
5.Press the "V" key

Of course this is just modifying your example to be more efficient based on that specific scenario (scrubbing, making a cut, and then going back to a state where you can move the clip).

If we want to just cut a clip, you can just do:

1.Press the "C" Key
2.Make your cut

And if you aren't moving clips, you can cut all you want without scrubbing whereas, according to your instructions for Magix/Vegas, every time you make a cut, you have to scrub to where you want to make it. You also don't HAVE to switch back to the selection tool after you make a cut, you can scrub to where you want to make a cut and then make the cut (assuming you already have the razor tool selected, that's only two steps). Not to mention, since you're keen on hotkeys, the "C" and "V" keys are right next to each other so going back and forth between the two don't require a whole lot of extra energy.

Well, I guess I just don't see why anyone would want to make a cut without knowing where they are cutting. If the scrub bar is already at the position you want to cut, why not just tap a key on your keyboard and be done with it; in Premiere you need to re-position your cursor at the position you already know you want to cut at, then make your cut. IDK, it just seems redundant to me. And when Magix defaults back to it's original state where you can move the clip, that makes so much more sense to me since that's what 90% of editing consists of: make my cut, then move my clip. With Premiere if I have to make my cut, switch back to the selection tool, then move my clip, and probably reselect the razor tool, it just seems like doing 1-2 unnecessary steps every single time I make a cut.

In Magix/Vegas:
2.hit the T or S key

aieli ileia: I just selected a clip
aieli ileia: and pressed S
aieli ileia: it didn't do anything

I had to ask Ileia what those keys actually do because you didn't add a step for selecting a clip on the timeline so for all i know, S and T cut all the clips on the timeline. When I used Magix I never used those keys.

T is the button Magix uses to make a cut.
S is the button Vegas uses to make a cut.

If you want to cut a specific clip select the clip first.
If you want to cut all clips in the timeline, don't select anything.

-------
I'm completely in-line with everything you said about flexibility, and that's one good reason why I might want to try Premiere again. But I do think the flexibility overshadows ease-of-use. For instance, Magix also has Rubber-Bands/keyframes in addition to fade handles; I don't see why Premiere couldn't also have fade handles. It's like Premiere is flexible in terms of what it is capable of, but not flexible in terms of efficiency. IMO, the most commonly used tasks should be reduced down to the least amount of effort since you are using them so often. And I don't see that with Premiere. So it kills me whenever I see an editor use Premiere just to make a simple cut and fade AMV, especially when they fail at it knowing things would be so much easier using another program.