Otakon 2003: Sizing up the Competition...

Announcement & discussion of Anime Music Video contests
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dwchang
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Post by dwchang » Sun Jun 15, 2003 2:53 pm

iserlohn wrote:Ahhh, but dwchang-san, you CAN insult all our videos now if you wish, just request a couple prescreening tapes from Matt and fill out the comments form =)
Yeah I might..just worried about deadlines he gave us...seems there isn't enough time to send him it, him to send it back and then watch...maybe though. I wrote him.
iserlohn wrote: but they're not the ones who are going to wake up at 8AM on a Saturday to drive to a campus, sit in a lecture
8 AM?!?! 8 hours of AMVS for just 3 tapes?!?!? WHOA! There are THAT many videos?!?! Damn!
Bogosort wrote:Egotistical by virtue of the fact that they were speaking about failures of bad videos, without really having any actual experience about the creation process of making an amv. And a large portion of the vocalized comments were focused into tearing the amv creator, rather than explaining specificly what was wrong with a vid and how it could be fixed. Oh wait, constructive criticism requires some degree of thought to be able to provide. Guess we can't have any of that.
Well I certainly hope none of the creators were there at least. Damn now you got me all paranoid about my own entry and if people are heckling it. Maybe it's a good thing I'm no there.

But yeah...I say you guys ask Matt to say something. I mean no matter how 'bad' (and that's a relative term) a video is, I respect the creators enough to at least watch it through and not disrespect it or the creator. I mean these people are submitting for the enjoyment of the con audience...it's not like we get paid or anything...they shouldnt' be allowed to do that considering it's free entertainment for them. They could just leave and not say anything...oh wait that takes maturity.
-Daniel
Newest Video: Through the Years and Far Away aka Sad Girl in Space

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Post by trythil » Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:00 pm

BogoSort wrote:And a large portion of the vocalized comments were focused into tearing the amv creator, rather than explaining specificly what was wrong with a vid and how it could be fixed. Oh wait, constructive criticism requires some degree of thought to be able to provide. Guess we can't have any of that.
You suck, and your videos suck too.

:P

...just kidding...
VegettoEX wrote: ... especially among some anime fans, let's call them "00ber g33ks," who are so insecure with themselves that they take advantage of the one faction of their fandom where they can actually place themselves above others: heckling. You'll notice that these individuals usually have a terrible, terrible, terrible sense of humor, as well.

The mob mentality comes in when GROUPS of these idiots get together, and collectively think they're being funny. And like BogoSort said, they believe that by shouting something out, they'll gain the approval of their peers by "correctly" judging a video... which also makes them feel better about themselves.
Yeah, this was one thing that I was glad I didn't hear or see much of at the ACen prescreenings (despite everything else that went wrong on the judging side of the contest...) I don't know if Patrick, Julius, or Michelle told the crowd to contain themselves beforehand, but it was definitely surprising to be able to view even what was obviously a rather low-quality video without (excessive) groans or personal attacks.

...though I do have to admit that I did do my share of groans whenever the "Cartoon Network" logo popped up. Yeah. I'm an asshole. Oh well. :cry:
dwchang wrote: I will admit I am a bit shocked since...no offense, but most AMV fans are generally pretty easy to please. I think your video Bogosort is a perfect example of this (since you are making a parody/mockery of it ). Most AMV fans like the popular animes or songs and the stupidest scenes...videos with this no matter how bad are always good to them...it appears not in this case...surprising.
From what I understand, though, a lot of the videos submitted to Otakon don't follow that traditional "omfg what was that cool fx or flashing scene" formula, and -- as you know, dwchang -- a lot of fans don't like anything that falls outside that boundary. I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if a lot of the heckling was directed towards the sappier videos :/

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dwchang
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Post by dwchang » Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:07 pm

trythil wrote: as you know, dwchang -- a lot of fans don't like anything that falls outside that boundary. I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if a lot of the heckling was directed towards the sappier videos :/
What are you implying? Eh? :)

As I know? As I know what? Hmmm??? :)

Yeah too bad we both submitted sappy videos :( :( :( Oh well.
-Daniel
Newest Video: Through the Years and Far Away aka Sad Girl in Space

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Vlad G Pohnert
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Post by Vlad G Pohnert » Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:15 pm

I find several probelms with pre-screening so many vidoe in a few video viewing sessions.

One is that it ends up being 6 or more hours. Even the best of use have a hard time seeing so many videos all at once and that for sure will have a profound influience on the judging of the vidoes since as the hours go on, peole get more tired and less interested and the scores start to change for the better or worse. In short, people have relativly short attendtion spans. O know, since I did audiance judging at Anime Expo in 2000. We watched videos for over 6 hours and after about 4 the heckling got worse and people were in a daze and yet judging continued! By the time the evening was over, 60% had left, 1/3 were almost asleep, another 1/3 didn't care anymore and we were still judging videos!!

You'd thing people come to these screening to watch and judge videos. I think this task has to be taken somewhat seriously and quite frankly people who heckle video I thing should end up being alsked to leave. But, I know that wilth the shear hours and videos one has to watch, this kind of behaivoir will be inevitable so throwing people out for heckling in the end just will end up pretty much clear the room...

The last point is that as people leave/come, the judging criteria of each video changes.. Let say if a group of people leave, will this affect the results releative to the other voted videos. Statistically it realy shouldn't and in theory the good videos should be picked, but when your start dealing with larger groups of people it just don't work that way...

I think the only serious way to judge such a sheer amount of videos is to watch only a fixed amount of hours each day by the same group of people. Now I know that's sound great in theory and this may not be possible in actuallity. If it is desired to have a larger crowed judge the vidoes then this would basically become totaly impossible! I agree that this is not something easily resolved, but with the number of submission on the rise, eventually something different will have to be done in order to be as fair as possible to all those who enter....

Vlad

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iserlohn
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Post by iserlohn » Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:22 pm

iserlohn wrote:uote="iserlohn"]
but they're not the ones who are going to wake up at 8AM on a Saturday to drive to a campus, sit in a lecture
8 AM?!?! 8 hours of AMVS for just 3 tapes?!?!? WHOA! There are THAT many videos?!?! Damn![/quote]

Well, I was up earlier than that...but I also had things to do before I left the house. People started filtering in around 9, Matt showed up around 9:45, and we waited until about 10:20 before starting going through vids. When all was said and done, with a break about halfway through each volume and an extended break after each one, we were done by around 7:30PM. 8AM is about the time one would have to wake up and either take mass transit or drive to campus from to arrive on time, esp. if you're coming from southern DC or Maryland....or way up north like Baltimore or Annapolis.
Bogosort wrote:Egotistical by virtue of the fact that they were speaking about failures of bad videos, without really having any actual experience about the creation process of making an amv. And a large portion of the vocalized comments were focused into tearing the amv creator, rather than explaining specificly what was wrong with a vid and how it could be fixed. Oh wait, constructive criticism requires some degree of thought to be able to provide. Guess we can't have any of that.
Yeah, there was plenty of that, usually along the lines of "Let's find out where they live and arrange an accident". I rarely take that seriously in terms of bad movie/amv/etc.
Well I certainly hope none of the creators were there at least. Damn now you got me all paranoid about my own entry and if people are heckling it. Maybe it's a good thing I'm no there.
There's some in every crowd. Nobody who was present had their videos shown, I wonder what people will say/do about mine - I entered it under a different alias, so nobody will actually know whose it is.
They could just leave and not say anything...oh wait that takes maturity.
Maturity? And college students? Impossible!
"I'm recording an album tonight. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later."
--Bill Hicks

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Post by BogoSort » Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:53 pm

trythil wrote:You suck, and your videos suck too.

:P

...just kidding...
Wait, you were just kidding? DAMNIT! And I keep trying to make suckier amvs. I guess I need to try harder for my next effort.
trythil wrote:From what I understand, though, a lot of the videos submitted to Otakon don't follow that traditional "omfg what was that cool fx or flashing scene" formula, and -- as you know, dwchang -- a lot of fans don't like anything that falls outside that boundary. I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if a lot of the heckling was directed towards the sappier videos :/
Personally I find that with sappier vids, I need to watch them 2-3 times to get the full effect of them. Just watching a vid once at a screening makes it hard for me to to really process what the creator is going with a vid. But sappier amvs do need to be looked at more as a whole, than random epileptic flashy ones, which one only needs to remember at mose 2-3 seconds to follow along with the vid.

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iserlohn
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Post by iserlohn » Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:07 pm

Vlad G Pohnert wrote:I find several probelms with pre-screening so many vidoe in a few video viewing sessions.

One is that it ends up being 6 or more hours. Even the best of use have a hard time seeing so many videos all at once and that for sure will have a profound influience on the judging of the vidoes since as the hours go on, peole get more tired and less interested and the scores start to change for the better or worse.
We took a lot of breaks. I mean a lot of breaks. Every 60 min. of videos would be met with at least 15 min. of break, and when doing the individual vhs submissions, there was a good 2 min. between each one as the tapes were swapped, cued, rewound, etc.

I'm also pretty sure that I voted the same way all day - I've barely seen any AMVs that aren't my own or my friends' since Katsucon, so I was able to go in without fear of burnout or boredom. Could the other creators comment on their pattern? One of the reasons I was so tired at the end was because I'd been up since 7 with little sleep the night before. Thank goodness for pizza and dr. pepper.

In short, people have relativly short attendtion spans. O know, since I did audiance judging at Anime Expo in 2000. We watched videos for over 6 hours and after about 4 the heckling got worse and people were in a daze and yet judging continued! By the time the evening was over, 60% had left, 1/3 were almost asleep, another 1/3 didn't care anymore and we were still judging videos!!
I, for one, think it's crazy that AX waits until the last minute to do their judging at the last minute like they do - having a series of screenings in advance would have made their jobs a lot better and let them do things like avoid the tech flaws that killed the contest screening last year.
You'd thing people come to these screening to watch and judge videos. I think this task has to be taken somewhat seriously and quite frankly people who heckle video I thing should end up being alsked to leave. But, I know that wilth the shear hours and videos one has to watch, this kind of behaivoir will be inevitable so throwing people out for heckling in the end just will end up pretty much clear the room...
Pretty much. The other two screenings should have significantly fewer videos - 2xT-120 at each, which is what they were last year and what was planned for yesterday. However, due to the inadequacies of Express Mail (delievered by noon my ass...), we had the time and everyone who was around after four hours was up for more.
I think the only serious way to judge such a sheer amount of videos is to watch only a fixed amount of hours each day by the same group of people. Now I know that's sound great in theory and this may not be possible in actuallity. If it is desired to have a larger crowed judge the vidoes then this would basically become totaly impossible! I agree that this is not something easily resolved, but with the number of submission on the rise, eventually something different will have to be done in order to be as fair as possible to all those who enter....
Interesting idea, and by having clubs sponsor the screenings there's a good chance of the same people showing up each time (they're local, they'd come anyways, etc.) Whatever the current problems are, though, I think we can all agree that it's better than, say, having Matt and Quu have to sit and judge everything themselves like in the old days. While I'm not putting their taste or abilities into question, having 20-50 people watch the videos in (large) chunks does (IMHO) a damn good job of eliminating claims of bias by organizers - the ballots are all filled out, with names filled in, and it's a micro-cosm of what will be present at the con.
"I'm recording an album tonight. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later."
--Bill Hicks

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Post by PhReAkAzOiD187 » Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:36 pm

this is probably stupid...but is there still time to send in the mailed entry form? i keep putting it off. heh
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Vlad G Pohnert
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Post by Vlad G Pohnert » Sun Jun 15, 2003 6:02 pm

iserlohn wrote:
We took a lot of breaks. I mean a lot of breaks. Every 60 min. of videos would be met with at least 15 min. of break, and when doing the individual vhs submissions, there was a good 2 min. between each one as the tapes were swapped, cued, rewound, etc..
Well, that's a good thing! BUt still the day is long and even with breaks people get tired of watching videos.. I know since I've spent considerable time encoding, watching video for the two contests I'm running.. I find that after a while you get tired no matter how many breaks you take....

Interesting idea, and by having clubs sponsor the screenings there's a good chance of the same people showing up each time (they're local, they'd come anyways, etc.) Whatever the current problems are, though, I think we can all agree that it's better than, say, having Matt and Quu have to sit and judge everything themselves like in the old days. While I'm not putting their taste or abilities into question, having 20-50 people watch the videos in (large) chunks does (IMHO) a damn good job of eliminating claims of bias by organizers - the ballots are all filled out, with names filled in, and it's a micro-cosm of what will be present at the con.
Yes, for sure in that respect... But then again maybe a large pannel of selected/experienced judges (say 10-12) sent the tapes would have more time to spend going through the tapes and singling out the finalists.. All I'm saying is that there are many different ways of doing pre-judging all whith thier faults. I myself am trying on working on a method that could be used for large quantities of entries done in a relatively short amount of time and be as fair as possible....

I just feel that a room full of anime fans may not be the best judges to shift thorugh the now vast assormtent of videos that are being created... Some of the good ones or ones thay may not have a mass appeal but nevertheless are good just may fall through the cracks, expecially when over 80% of them will not make the cut....

Vlad

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Post by Nappy » Sun Jun 15, 2003 7:35 pm

That's a small amount of ppl prejugding such a big con no? I mean couldn't someone just bring a group of friends and hold a large percent of the vote o_O

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