I just realized something sad. [about fansubs]

Kristyonna · Post by **Kristyonna** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 12:35 pm

1. No matter how good something is, I RARELY ever want to see it more than once. People in Japan don't have to pay for being able to see TV shows and, assuming they have a VCR, they don't watch commercials either. Why should *I* spend $30 for three episodes of something I want to see only once.

2. Dubbing *any* foreign films, anime or otherwise, into a different laguage is a thing of pure evil so I couldn't care less about that.

3. The few shows I like enough to actually watch more than once, I have to worry about them completely butchering the subtitles, e.g. the Kenshin DVD's I wasted my money and, more recently, the Read or Die DVD I wasted my money on. Sure the picture looks great but I think I'll go back to my digisub copy, thank you.

I *do* own some DVD's that I enjoy but they're the exception for me rather than the rule.

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 2:03 pm

First off great post Garylisk. You resonate with exactly how I feel about fansubbing (the whoreboxes you talk about...not the ones who follow the rules) and bootleggers (which are rampant on these boards lately).

Bravo

Kristyonna wrote:1. No matter how good something is, I RARELY ever want to see it more than once. People in Japan don't have to pay for being able to see TV shows and, assuming they have a VCR, they don't watch commercials either. Why should *I* spend $30 for three episodes of something I want to see only once.

Because that's how this thing called "our economy" works. If you want to see it, you have to pay for it. Anime distributors PAY for the rights to distribute the anime and thus it is their right to charge for you to watch something that was shown on TV (for free) in Japan. It's originally something that has Japanese copyrights and thus US companies must PURCHASE them.

There's nothing wrong with them making something, you purchasing it and you watching it once. Guess what? People do that when they buy a ticket to the movies too? You don't see people coming to the box office and arguing "I don't think I'm gonna watch that movie again, so I think you should give me my money back."

I am sick and tired of the argument that "I wouldn't watch it more than once anyway." So what! You wanted to see it once right? That "privelege" is granted through the purchase (or rental) of the product. That's how the economy works. Plain and simple.

If you don't want to watch it...don't. Then less of it will come out. If you like a show, buy it...supporting it will bring even more anime. I don't understand how bootleggers can rationalize this "I'm too poor" thing when in turn all they are doing is killing the very hobby they (apparently) SO love (the best is when you hear about ppl who *have* to watch a show and thus cross so many legal lines just to appease themselves). And yes I do realize that the industry isn't dying, but it's the principle behind it and backing up something you (supposedly) "love."

I'm sorry to rant and it's not all directed at you. I am upset with the entire community for this since it makes no rational sense and only hurts the industry.

FATTY_VM · Post by **FATTY_VM** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:47 pm

well in the end, i purchase the series i enjoy, to an extent, and i dont buy shoes because they are fashionable ... 70$ for flcl .. so be it ... 120 for new jordan kickers .. he can suck my ass ....
20$ for the cb movie ... .. butter ....... hundreds of $'s for DBZ .. inuyusha or even naruto when its realesed .... they can suck my ass along with those pricks that are cashing in on any overpriced good or service ...

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:00 pm

Yes, a rather beautiful post.

I'll come out straight away and say that yea, I've done post-licensing downloads. Exactly same reasons that Garylisk mentioned. Also, the fact that I spend a good 1/3 of my spare income on anime every year. I will do my best to support and spread the popularity of anime, but all at reasonable cost. So, I wont say this post-license download thing is clean business, but I feel no guilt about it. 0. None.

thanks for good rant

Kristyonna · Post by **Kristyonna** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:10 pm

dwchang wrote:
I am sick and tired of the argument that "I wouldn't watch it more than once anyway." So what! You wanted to see it once right? That "privelege" is granted through the purchase (or rental) of the product. That's how the economy works. Plain and simple.

First off, I'm not talking about movies or even OAV's that I'd have to pay for like everyone else if I lived in Japan.

But are you seriously trying to tell me that if I see a fansubbed version of a really good show that I should go and buy it after it has been released domestically even though I'd never even open the packaging being as how I've already seen it?

It's obviously wrong to violate copyrite laws so why would I be happy if suddenly U.S. televion was only available to me if I paid someone $30 for every 3 or 4 times that I watched Letterman or The Simpsons? Most people just aren't that obsessed with television so why would anime fans be any different? Most people just don't get that obsessed with with Japanese or American television that they'd want to OWN a show. Every once and a while when I *do*, I gladly pay whatever it costs just like I do for American shows(unless they completey butchered the translation in the subtitles but I never know until AFTER I've given them my money).

Your argument sounds like you're suggesting fansubs should be done away with altogether by saying, if you want to see it once, you should pay for it. However, unless you've purchased every single fansub you've ever seen when it comes out domestically, that's only being hypocritical. If you have, then I really CAN'T argue with you.

One last thing. The television shows get their money from advertising so if you've ever fast forwarded through the commercials (like I used to) or skipped through them using TIVO (like I do now) they could argue that you're ripping them off (and the advertisers now are saying just that).

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:32 pm

Kristyonna wrote:
dwchang wrote:
I am sick and tired of the argument that "I wouldn't watch it more than once anyway." So what! You wanted to see it once right? That "privelege" is granted through the purchase (or rental) of the product. That's how the economy works. Plain and simple.

First off, I'm not talking about movies or even OAV's that I'd have to pay for like everyone else if I lived in Japan.

But are you seriously trying to tell me that if I see a fansubbed version of a really good show that I should go and buy it after it has been released domestically even though I'd never even open the packaging being as how I've already seen it?

I'm guessing I misunderstood your post since I thought you were talking about legitimate licensed products...i.e. getting DVD rips. I don't at all mind if you keep your fansubs and not buy the product. What I do have a problem with is when people download anime AFTER it has been licensed (like DVD rips..these are the exact same copies as the one you can buy).

So yeah, reading over your previous post, I guess you could've been more specific since you made it seem (to me) like you download an anime (licensed), watch it once, don't wanna watch it again. I was arguing that if something is already out commercially and you wanna see it..you should go buy/rent it like a good consumer.

So yeah..hope that clears it up.

Kristyonna · Post by **Kristyonna** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:01 pm

dwchang wrote: So yeah, reading over your previous post, I guess you could've been more specific since you made it seem (to me) like you download an anime (licensed), watch it once, don't wanna watch it again. I was arguing that if something is already out commercially and you wanna see it..you should go buy/rent it like a good consumer.

Ah yes. Breaking the law is a bad thing so I agree with this. The controversy in the opinion I was trying to express was that since I don't like breaking the law, I empathize with Garylisk's friend because I wouldn't watch American television anymore if the only way to see it was to pay as much as it costs to watch domestically licensed anime tv. If the American television companies thought they could get away with charging us that much for a simple TV show they would. They don't do it because that would be crazy and they would all go out of business. And yet this is what the domestic anime companies are trying to do. I'm not saying that I wish they would all just go away because there *are* a very small amount of shows I'd like to watch again and again. But for everything else, they just make it illegal and I can't see it at *all*. Well, they're making their money so that's what's important, right?

So again, my question is why should Garylisk's friend and I be happy about this?

TsumiKi · Post by **TsumiKi** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:07 pm

I'd like to add my piece. Being a college student, I have worked to pay for this education all throughout high school, plus a full year afterwards. So, I have limited funds on how much I am able to spend. I don't mind buying anime DVDs for $30 a piece. But I have to know that the anime is worth the money, or I am going to feel majorly cheated. And I don't know of any store that will give me a full refund if it sucks. So what do I do?

I download an ep or two when it is already out on DVD.

And I can tell you, these networks are not being harmed as much as you let on by downloads. They are being harmed by having shitty quality and poor plot lines, by bad voice actors and crappy animation. I have bought 2 complete series just by downloading one episode of each and discovering it was cool. And now I'm working on a third that i saw one ep of.

But not everything is coming out on DVD right away. I was watching DNAngel before it got licensed, and I am hooked. I'm in suspense over the plot. It's one of my favorites. But now I have to wait a couple years to see the rest of it because it got licensed. And I don't think that's fair. I have every intention of buying it when it comes out, but the least they could have done was waited until the show finished airing in Japan. Same thing with Wolf's Rain.

The truth is, no one wants to get cheated out of their money, and we all want to support anime so that it can continue to be licensed and released in the US. We just don't want the crappy anime that has a tendency to get licensed more than the good stuff. Problem is, there is no way we can preview these shows, besides magazines that include promotional anime DVDs with them (which I think is a really good idea). We can't watch it on TV. We don't get commercial trailers on TV for them. We don't get box office trailers unless it's for something like Spirited Away. There are no clips we can download online, just anime reviews from people whose tastes might or might not coincide with ours. The only way we can get it cheap is to buy it from a half price book/movie store. And they don't take requests.

I'm not saying that downloading an entire short series that is already domestically released isn't bad. It is. But just downloading a few episodes to make sure it isn't crap doesn't seem so bad to me. After all, we buy anime to support the distribution of anime. But I refuse to support something I don't like. And I totally agree that it is unreasnable to charge multiple hundreds and even thousands of dollars for an anime series.

That's it. That's all I have to say on the subject. Everyone believes themselves to be right, but I don't think there is one right way.

Every rule has an exeption.

Kristyonna · Post by **Kristyonna** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:27 pm

TsumiKi wrote:We can't watch it on TV. We don't get commercial trailers on TV for them. We don't get box office trailers unless it's for something like Spirited Away. There are no clips we can download online, just anime reviews from people whose tastes might or might not coincide with ours.

I also think it's interesting that the U.S. television shows are only released on dvd AFTER the show's over and the the re-runs have been played to death. This way, only hard-core fans end up buying it because they're the only ones who are willing to pay that kind of money. Why do these companies think anime so different? All they're doing is screwing over everyone except for the REALLY hardcore fans of that particular series who have already seen it.

Wabz0r · Post by **Wabz0r** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:41 pm

You have to place yourselves in "their" position. You *love* anime, you have a fast internet-connection and a place to download it from, but "no money at all". Would you just ignore that and live on with your life without anime until you get some money three years later to buy it?

Ask anyone, the answer would probably be yes - of all sorts of ethical reasons. But really... "No I wont download this anime, it would lead to the makers going bankrupt and the downfall of the beautiful era of anime!!!11". That's not a very realistic thought of a human being tbh

However, it IS theft. You wouldn't take something in a store just because you can - it's wrong. So what makes that different from downloading(stealing) anime from the internet? Well the reality is, noone cares if you do. There wont be a swat team at your door the next day, there wont be any ISP shutting you down for a year. That's what makes you download things illeagally.

The only thing stopping you would be your consciousness (in my case eating me up from the inside

) and there's really not much to do about it, other than creating these large threads making people understand how harmful this is.

Bah... as usual I can't see my point... Just make sure you somehow pay back to the creat0rs for making your life better