Trigun Symbolism

HeartbreakerByZep · Post by **HeartbreakerByZep** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:07 pm

I disagree heartily about the "good" and "evil" symbolism, or rather the notion that you can't put those titles to characters. In many stories there are very obvious symbol(s) of good/purity and/or evil/hatred. And Vash is definetly the symbol of good in Trigun, he always tries to do what's good. He may have killed people, but he's still good, that's shown by the episode with the woman, I think it was Sweet July? Maybe Vash's downfalls are even ment to demonstrate to us something about good? It's possible, maybe even likely.

Tsunami Jones · Post by **Tsunami Jones** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:38 pm

HeartbreakerByZep wrote:I disagree heartily about the "good" and "evil" symbolism, or rather the notion that you can't put those titles to characters. In many stories there are very obvious symbol(s) of good/purity and/or evil/hatred. And Vash is definetly the symbol of good in Trigun, he always tries to do what's good. He may have killed people, but he's still good, that's shown by the episode with the woman, I think it was Sweet July? Maybe Vash's downfalls are even ment to demonstrate to us something about good? It's possible, maybe even likely.

True. While you definitely can (and in some things it's definitely true) put good/evil to these characters, I don't think that the Trigun characters actually represent those themes. To me, Vash is just a very human character, more so than any other character in the series. So I would be more inclined to relate him as an example of humanity, or perhaps what humanity should be. And back to the top, this is why I don't think he represents "good" overall. He's just too human. And if Vash is truly good, that would put Knives as truly evil. While he is definitely an evil guy, does he represent that? Or does he represent that there is still good inside of everyone? Because as we know, Vash did not kill Knives at the end. He could have, but he spared him. He saw the good in him, as did we all when they were originally found as children.

SarahtheBoring · Post by **SarahtheBoring** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:51 pm

Yyeaaahh... as much as I dearly love to ramble about possible symbolism (I'm an Utena fan, for chrissake), I don't think Trigun is really like that. I think you could read more into the characters' motivations - for instance, Vash's intentions are good, but he holds to them WAY beyond any force of reason, and he kind of holds them for the wrong reasons (not so much "don't hurt people because it's not fair" as "don't hurt people because Mom told me not to") - but I don't think it's so much a case of "x = y, a = b" or characters standing for a particular meaning.

On the other hand, I'm always amused by the - JOKING - thought that if Vash stands for communism and Knives stands for fascism...

I guess this is spoilery, so I'll spoiler-box it. (Wolfwood's goals, Vash's evil deeds, and plants)

Spoiler wrote:
Wolfwood, on the other hand, ultimately had a noble goal (protecting kids from the kind of trouble he went through) but ended up going through really bad channels to accomplish it. There are questions of good and evil, but they aren't matters of symbolism so much as motivation, I think.

Vash didn't kill the people in July directly; he destroyed their city, and they died of starvation and whatnot afterward. He also destroyed their city accidentally, because at the time he couldn't control the Angel Arm. The thing is, Knives' entire point was to make him THINK he killed all those people, and the GHGs, and Wolfwood, in order to torture him. Vash takes responsibility for those even if it wasn't actually, directly, his fault. That's Knives' whole scheme. I guess the idea is to convince Vash that living around humans is only going to cause him pain.

As far as I can gather, "plant" is just a bizarre translation for whatever alien species they are. It helps, at least in the translation, to divert our attention from the fact that the plants in the energy-bulb thingers are actually living creatures, because "plant" in English can also be taken as "power plant," an inanimate thing... but Rem does call them angels. I tend to think of them as aliens. *shrug*

derek_t · Post by **derek_t** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:51 am

I didn't really see any symbolism other than its general Christian message of "love thy enemy". I don't think one side being good or the other side being evil is sysbolism (if Knives wore a swastika that symbolism, him being evil isn't)

HeartbreakerByZep · Post by **HeartbreakerByZep** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:07 pm

Tsunami Jones wrote: True. While you definitely can (and in some things it's definitely true) put good/evil to these characters, I don't think that the Trigun characters actually represent those themes. To me, Vash is just a very human character, more so than any other character in the series. So I would be more inclined to relate him as an example of humanity, or perhaps what humanity should be. And back to the top, this is why I don't think he represents "good" overall. He's just too human. And if Vash is truly good, that would put Knives as truly evil. While he is definitely an evil guy, does he represent that? Or does he represent that there is still good inside of everyone? Because as we know, Vash did not kill Knives at the end. He could have, but he spared him. He saw the good in him, as did we all when they were originally found as children.

I'll agree with you. Vash is very human, one could easily go down that road. There's so much personal artistic vision in this kind of stuff. But if Vash is humanity, what does that make Wolfwood? I should think about this stuff and come to a conclusion, but I'm hungry, so later.

derek_t wrote:I didn't really see any symbolism other than its general Christian message of "love thy enemy". I don't think one side being good or the other side being evil is sysbolism (if Knives wore a swastika that symbolism, him being evil isn't)

There's symbolism, and then there's symbolism. What you're talking about is just internal symbolism. We're mostly talking about the other (or rather, an other) kind of symbolism. Microcasm stuff, symbolism through examples, stuff where if something happens to this then it is also happening to that. It's not that Knives is evil, it's that Knives symbolizes what evil is. And I don't see how "love thy enemy" is symbolism, unless you go more into it than just that. (Which, thinking about it, easily could be done.

)

derek_t · Post by **derek_t** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:12 pm

HeartbreakerByZep wrote:
Tsunami Jones wrote: True. While you definitely can (and in some things it's definitely true) put good/evil to these characters, I don't think that the Trigun characters actually represent those themes. To me, Vash is just a very human character, more so than any other character in the series. So I would be more inclined to relate him as an example of humanity, or perhaps what humanity should be. And back to the top, this is why I don't think he represents "good" overall. He's just too human. And if Vash is truly good, that would put Knives as truly evil. While he is definitely an evil guy, does he represent that? Or does he represent that there is still good inside of everyone? Because as we know, Vash did not kill Knives at the end. He could have, but he spared him. He saw the good in him, as did we all when they were originally found as children.
I'll agree with you. Vash is very human, one could easily go down that road. There's so much personal artistic vision in this kind of stuff. But if Vash is humanity, what does that make Wolfwood? I should think about this stuff and come to a conclusion, but I'm hungry, so later.

Lets have a try at this.

Vash represent the ideal man, hes forgiving, kind, etc, etc, etc

Knives represents evil, or more likely the ideal of "any person not good enough, the hell with" sort of person

Wolfwood represents humans in the sense that his ideal are good but his methods are wrong or that we allow are emotions to rationalize our actions.

derek_t · Post by **derek_t** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:13 pm

I should add,

I am so a Knives type person

HeartbreakerByZep · Post by **HeartbreakerByZep** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:16 pm

So you judge people by their race, and want to enact mass-genocide until only you and your brother are left?

I'd be a Wolfwood, if anything.

derek_t · Post by **derek_t** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:39 pm

HeartbreakerByZep wrote:So you judge people by their race, and want to enact mass-genocide until only you and your brother are left?

I'd be a Wolfwood, if anything.

You don't think the writer may of been using an extereme view to make a general point about people? I defently more a kill the spiders to save the butterflies (well excpet I don't really care for butterflies) person.

SarahtheBoring · Post by **SarahtheBoring** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:48 pm

*facepalms, sighs*

Please understand what "symbolism" is before you say that something is symbolic. Okay?

A little actual thought to attempt to balance things out...

Here's the thing about Knives and Vash. Knives takes a fairly dark view of life that has been espoused by people in reality as well, some with neutral results and some with disastrous results. The idea is that you have to kill or be killed, that life is a murderous race to the finish and only the strong deserve to survive. Vash's philosophy, which he got from Rem, is that everyone deserves an equal chance at life and that even making mistakes is not the end of everything. It doesn't focus on innate value, because under that philosophy everyone is equally, and highly, valuable.

Knives takes this kind of Hobbesian viewpoint and drives it right into sociopathic territory by claiming that everyone but himself (and, by extension, his brother) are "garbage," but frankly that bores me. (Besides, most omgteenANGST stereotypes who spout this sort of "omg I'm juuuust like Sephiroth I mean Neo I mean Knives" tripe are whiny, pimply little misanthropes who have no idea what they're actually saying and just want to attempt to make themselves look cool. /tangent)

The thing about Knives is that early on he learned to fear humans, to see them as his enemy. He wasn't Rem's favorite, and didn't bond with her like Vash did, so he didn't connect with humans on that friendly level. He saw humans through people like Steve, who openly resented Knives and Vash and pushed them around simply because he could. This is why the apples are his symbol (THIS is symbolism, kids) in ep 17 - lying under the apple tree, he asks if someone will eat him when he grows up. He sees humans as predators from that point on, and because of that he decides to get them before they can get him.

What you mean by "external symbolism" is called allegory. Animal Farm is allegory. Many people say Evangelion is allegory in that it's actually about the director's life. I don't think Trigun is allegorical.

Some actual symbolism in the series would be -

apples (17) - Knives, mainly Knives as a child. There are shots of apples falling, and when Knives cuts his hair (the point when he starts to veer away from Vash and Rem) there's a bitten apple lying on the floor in the foreground.
geraniums - Rem/Rem's influence - this is, well, sledgehammer obvious. Vash wears red because it stands for ideals Rem held. This is laid out in #26.
In some way, Chapel the Evergreen's apple is vaguely symbolic - as I gather, Chapel's title is hereditary, passed from master to student. Also, he teaches Wolfwood, and when it seems that Wolfwood has learned all he can he finally swipes the apple. So in that way, it can be symbolic of Chapel's teachings/wisdom (such that it is).

I think that's about it, really. In the anime, anyway. If you really wanna talk symbolism, pick another series.