Whats with you DBZ haters!? heres reasons why its good...

nrjize · Post by **nrjize** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:45 am

Yeah, your right, I admit to the flaws DBZ has, but I hold firmly that its good points outweigh the bad, I guess its popularity is the main reason for this debate because as you said... many other animes have these same kinds of problems.

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 5:51 am

el_farlo wrote:ok calling us ignorant will get you no-where...this is just a preference..trying to force someone to like a series that they think is garbage is useless.

First, I just want to say that I agree with you completely. There is no sense calling names, and no point trying to forcefeed a preference down someone's throat. ^_^ But since I'm bored and I missed the heat of the debat, I'm going to add on and probably restate some things that have already come out in the middle of this long thread.

"now heres the reasons in which i dislike that series"
1: crude animation

Animation style can be a major turnoff for me as well. I avoided Akira for the longest time because of the way the characters were drawn. I still won't watch it. Fushigi Yugi has beautiful characters, but the style is too effeminate - they all look the same after a while. Whether it's crude - with the lined shades they use in the early dbz sagas, or overdone 'prettification' like they have in Fushigi Yugi, animation style can be a major factor. But in dbz's defense, the later sagas clean up the animation. The characters don't look as rugged, most of the lines disappear in favor of more detailed colors and real shading. They still have their own distinct looks, but they're made 'prettier' as the series develops until, but the Buu saga, you'd barely recognize some of the characters that were shown in the early Saiyan saga. The difference is startling - as you can see if you watch a video tha shows clips from different parts of the series. Yes, dbz's style starts out very crude, too crude for me to watch if I weren't attached to the characters, but it does improve. Whereas other animes remain the same, stagnant, with no growth on the part of the artist.

2: dull plot

This really can be tied to redundant, but they were listed separately, so I'll deal with them separately. The plot of dbz is immense. There are a lot of episodes to be focusing on the same characters. You'd have to have a lot of things happen to keep a series going that long, and dbz does. If you compare it to other long-run animes, you might try Inuyasha. That one has a lot of episodes, but you'll notice with that one the plot is the same story throughout - find the shards, fight this demon, find some more, fight that one, with the same few villains popping in occassionally to hassle the characters, and a sideplot of romance to keep it from getting too Sailormoonish in the episodes. Now think of dbz and what it has for plots. It has sagas, separate those and you get distinct stories. Yes, some of the stories carry onto the next sagas, but by themselves they are detailed. The villains may be similar in their strength (start out looking a little weak, prove to be stronger than anyone - godlike - then Goku saves the day). But behind the villains is always a detailed story.

Frieza is a very detailed story that tells a lot about the characters, about saiyajin history in general, and the saga may be drawn out but the characters move, they fight Vegeta, go to Namek, up until the final devastatingly long fight with Frieza & Goku, there was a moving plot. If you accept that one habit of dbz to draw out fights, there are many things in that one saga that are detailed, vibrant, and not at all dull. Sure, the fight ruins it for the most part if that's all you look at, but the same can be true for many animes.

Then there's the Android arc, into the Cell saga. You have Trunks, the idea of an alternate timeline, the androids causing havoc and Goku suddenly (happily for me ^_~ ) being taken out of the picture by a virus, and then there's Cell's arrival and Piccolo's fusion, and the androids almost-alliance with the 'good' side, and the sudden view of a good side *to* the androids (which if you see the History of Trunks comes as a surprise - showing the true differences in those two timelines). You have the androids suddenly being victims, and Cell's race to be complete, and the introduction of a new level of saiyajin, complete with character development between the father/son pairs, and the cell games, into the eventual defeat of Cell. Sure, the actual fights may be long, but the plot itself is twisting and detailed.

And finally, since I won't watch GT (talk about your animation styles...yech..), you have the Buu saga. In the absence of Goku you get to look at Gohan's character, you have romance (though I could have done without that, thank you very much), the two demi-saiyans, and a tournament to plan for, and then Goku's arrival back on earth to make an interesting reuinion and interraction for the fans, and then there's the tournament itself with the funny Satan sidescenes, and Babidi's henchmen, and the introduction of Shin, the tournament progresses (given with long battles, but even those are different characters and more prone to humor until the Videl fight), and then there's Gohan being attacked and the move to find Babidi, there's the 3 battles inside the ship, and then there's Vegeta's transformation - a marked point in the anime for those focusing on character development, and the fight between Goku & Vegeta (another long fight, but that is dbz's biggest flaw - drawn out battles), in the meantime the plot continues outside of that fight with the move to stop Babidi, and then it's too late and you have Vegeta's fight and eventual sacrifice - a complex scene aside from the fight itself and containing more emotion than the average fighting anime has, and then it's a race to defeat Buu without Goku, and the Trunks/Goten fusion, and the battles against Buu including those scenes of mass destruction to the planet's population, and then Goku's ressurection, and the loss of the world's fighters except for Goku and eventually Vegeta, and then you have the first true saiyan fusion (pure-blooded, anyway), and then the battle until it ends - at which point the tension lightens with some rather funny humor bits, and the eventual destruction of the planet and movement to the final battleground, and then there is the final fight complete with more character development (mostly on Vegeta's part) and the incorporation of a group-effort on the part of the earthlings into the final destruction of Buu. That one arc is a long, complicated story, and a complicated story has a complicated plot. Yes, it's long and I think that's the key issue - it's too slow in places, especially the battles. But you'd hardly call a plot with so many twists and details dull.

3: redundancy

Anime characters almost always have set traits that will show up in any episodes or sagas consistently. Dbz has its hero in Goku. I hate that fact, but it remains that most animes have this same fault. Escaflowne, Fushigi Yugi, and Inuyasha have the girl characters who are always necessary to save the day - giving power or wisdom or whatever to the main character so they can succeed. YYH has the main male character in Yusuke, as do other action animes like Rurouni Kenshin. Sailormoon and other shoujo animes have the main female characters who are left to save the day. To think dbz is alone in this redundant trait is to ignore anime as a whole - there's almost always a main character who is left to get the spotlight in the end.

As for the fights themselves, yes, it's very boring at times, and you already know Goku's going to win in the end, or his son will with his help - just so long as Goku can take partial credit. But the means to that end change according to the story. Just like you know Kenshin is going to win in the end, how he gets there and his battles leading up to that end are what keep it from being redundant. DBZ gives minor battles leading up to the end, just like any other anime, so while the end may be redundant (as most anime 'final battles' are), the lead in changes consistently. You have different fights, different villains, different methods of attack, and so on.

4: minimal story

This point has been argued a great deal in the 'plot' section, and also in the points people have made about character development in dbz. By the end of the Buu saga you can say you've seen Vegeta's life story - you see him at his best and at his worst, tormented, frustrated, satisfied, content, angry, upset - all the emotions have been gone through to the point where he is a true character. Many other characters have that same depth, including Trunks and Gohan. Goku remains a rather dull character, but he's the main character and all he's really needed for is to finish the final fights, so adding depth to him would only take away from the more interesting characters. But even he is given depth if you take into account the dragonball series, which can be added to the dbz sagas.

Aside from the characters and storylines, there's romance. It's muted (not enough for me), but it's still there. You have people meeting, hitting it off, producing children (how many animes do you get to see the second generation in aside from extra ovas?), and then you get to follow the children and develop their characters alongside the old ones. Few animes stretch long enough, or dare to jump far enough in time, to tell such detailed stories as dbz contains. It's just a matter of looking past the final drawn-out fights and seeing what leads up to them, and who the people are that take part in those fights - who their families are, their histories. All of that information is contained in the anime, giving it a complex story.

5: too much emphasis on one fight(ive never seen an anime take so frustratingly long for a SINGLE fight)

Amen! Yes, this one really shouldn't be argued with. Unfortunately, I *have* seen other animes draw out the final battles. No, most don't go nearly so long as that fateful Goku/Frieza battle, but many go past the the point where I care to watch. But there's a reason why dbz can have long fights that many other animes don't have. Dbz gives depth to its characters better than most animes, and when you are watching a character with depth, a character you come to care about (and don't tell me people don't care about their favorite anime characters ^_~ ), you don't mind as much if you see that person striving and pushing to achieve a goal. A dedicated fan will be sitting and getting just as frustrated as the character in the anime at the trial of trying to defeat a seemingly impossible enemy. It's all a part of building tension for the scene, and if you don't watch enough to care about the character, if you don't see the depth of the character, you won't care to watch the fight. That's natural. I don't like Goku, and I don't care enough about his character to watch the Goku/Frieza fight. But I have watched other fights that last nearly as long when they include characters I care about - so it really depends on your preference in regards to the character.

Dbz has as many flaws as any other anime, and it has a few (like the battles), but once the characters are developed, there's much more to the actual fights than just watching two people exchange blows. It's the depth of the characters that make the fighting worth while. So if you don't watch enough to see or appreciate the characters, you probably won't ever care about the anime itself. ^_^

njijin · Post by **njijin** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:08 am

As the person said that DBZ is a good anime, and I second that!

Other good points about DBZ is that the bad guys can change theare ways and be a good guy.(ex all of goku's frinds) The bad guys dont stay evil some of them do but one out of three change theare ways.

And even though thare is only one female fighter on the team goku and vageta's wifes have to put up with a lot.

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:26 am

That's very true about the female characters. Females are neglected in many action animes, and they don't have a major role in dbz, but the women they do focus on (aside from the quick humor brainless bimbos) are usually strong characters. Bulma, who may be a bit ditsy early in the anime, is still very smart, and just think what sort of person would have the gall to order Vegeta around - she's got my vote for strong female character, easy. And Chi chi I may not like (a little to focused on education over saving the world), but she has to put up with Goku of all people - you have to give her credit for that one. And it's great to see these big, strong males cowering when the women raise their voices. And then there are the fighters, 18, Videl, Pan - though I must say Videl is mostly there so Gohan could have his romantic partner, and Pan is pretty pathetic as a child - female or not, they still fight right along with the guys when they can.

About the enemies turning allies - that's an odd thing that I've seen in one or two animes besides dbz, but rarely so often. I know YYH has a number of 'enemies' turn good, but those were just opponents in a tournament, dbz has it's 'bad guys' won over slowly, if and when they can be. Eighteen is a good example of that, and Piccolo, and of course Vegeta took the longest to 'win over' since he was still professing his wish to kill Goku eventually. ^_^

I think there's a lot more to dbz than most people realize or care to find out about. They look at the fights, namely that *one* fight, and turn away. And it's really their loss, no point worrying about it.

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:25 am

Ugh... now that I'm awake, can I please say something?

Did I ever say I had a problem with you liking DBZ? Did I ever say you're not allowed to bring up my good points about it? Did I ever say I hated the show?

no.

My problem is with the way you presented your points. Basically, you're going out with your subjective point of view and presenting it as some empirical evidence to DBZ's superiority.

I can go out of my way to bring up similar points for, say, Fushigi Yuugi, Sailormoon, Digimon... and say that oh, but they're so much better than DBZ. But that's not gonna prove much to you, is it? Perhaps, because your perception of all of the above is different from mine.

Perception is subjective. In this case, especially, when you're bringing such disparate anime titles - you can hardly bring anything that's empirical and definite into the equation. So what comes out in the end - I still like my show, you still like your show, except we're pissed at each other because you tried to prove that your show is better than mine and I didn't fall for it.

Because you can't prove it, at least not to me. You'd really have to find a weaker and less rational person to be able to alter their perception with faulty argument.

***

PS - I wish everyone's responces and arguments were as rational and well-wtitten as Arigatomyna's... really

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:27 am

Oh yea... in case it was unclear - that above post was directed at nrjize

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:35 am

Ah, you worried me, Otohiko. ^_^; I wasn't trying to say it was better, just that it has as many 'bad' points as any anime does. I just liked countering the bad points by showing the good side as well as the bad. I didn't plan to change anyone's mind about their preference in animes, just to...justify my preference, and to maybe explain why there are so many people who *do* like the anime - just like there are many people who like animes that I don't like. ^_^ It's all good.

Moonlight Soldier · Post by **Moonlight Soldier** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:36 am

Did you guys get any sleep or have you been continuing your rant all night??

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:43 am

Nothing to worry about on your behalf

Heck, one of my real-life best friends is a DBZ fan, and I don't stop him. I know why he likes it. But we don't seem to have a problem - I mean he tolerated my Sailormoon addiction pretty well back in the day

The only reason I got involved in this thread in the first place is because I saw a shaky argument made in bad spirit... I'm an argument junkie - so if there's gonna be an argument, I always try to make sure people got their points straight

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:45 am

Oh, I definitely agree! I love a good argument, it's like an adrenaline rush for me. ^_^;; And I was a Sailormoon fan for a long time there before I started watching other animes.

And Moonlight Soldier? I missed the rant. ~_~ I just came in on the end of it since I sleep days. ^_^