Hiei or Vegeta

hitorkiribattousai · Post by **hitorkiribattousai** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:34 pm

........hiei would win.....there both really fast........and they are not quiters....but hiei has martials arts and a swordsmanship back round when vegita has a martial arts back round..... Hiei is the best because he has that dragon of darkness flame attack.....that attack is un beatalbe

Bebop0083 · Post by **Bebop0083** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:53 pm

i would like to see Hiei's Black Dragon Wave go up against Goku's Super Dragon Fist. i cant exactly say which is more powerful since Goku only used it twice. once in movie 13 and once in the Super 17 saga. but my bet still goes on to Hiei.

Bote · Post by **Bote** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:56 pm

Gather your bets! Cash people, cash! Betting 10 euros on Vegeta...

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:36 pm

OujiVegetasstalker wrote:..okie now compare that strength to that of Vegetas and then tell me if Hiei can beat him or not..because it wasnt the lil demon who beat the Taguru(think i got it right yet?) .....

True, but Koenma said Toguro was a B class demon when Yusuke defeated him. After that (the beginning of the Sensui arc), Hiei asked Keonma what rank *he* was and he said he was B - meaning he was then as strong as Toguro. Once they fight Sensui, Sensui says Hiei and Kurama are both A class demons (which is why they can't pass through the barrier). After they fight him (into the Makai arc) both reach their original strengths - meaning S class. So if you think Vegeta is only as strong as Toguro, then Hiei is *much* much stronger by then that. The classes:

S class - what Yusuke ends up being, what Hiei was before he got his jagan and what he is at the end of the series
.
.
.
.
A class - what Hiei was when he faced Sensui
B class - Toguro, what Hiei was after he mastered his dragon
D class - what Hiei was after he got his jagan implanted

There's a huge gap between A and S - and Toguro was only a B class demon. ^_^; Hiei and Yusuke just weren't that strong when they faced him - both had a ways to go before they 'topped' out and hit S class. ^.~

Cloud Clone · Post by **Cloud Clone** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:40 pm

Ummm, quick question here: Why did Hiei become less powerful after he got his Jagan eye? Wasn't it supposed to make him more powerful?

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:49 pm

TheDarknessFlame wrote:Vegeta would probably win since he can fly and incinerate planets without even trying. Don't get me wrong I think hiei's cooler and would rather him kick vegetas ass but you can't really compare anyone from yuyu to someone in dbz because their power is utterly ridiculus and basically limitless. But it was the overdone strength of the characters in dbz(as well as lack of plot or ending) that caused it to fail as an anime.

Heh, as much as I love YYH, it does have its share of the 'ridiculous and seemingly limitless' characters. When Sensui was first shown, he was nothing if not a Cell remake (only he had a conscience and motive and a better explanation for doing what he did). Sensui flew, Bui flew, Jin flew, the guy Jin fights in the Makai tournament flies - lots of YYH characters fly, but that never stopped Hiei or other non-flying characters from beating them using their own strengths. Limitless physical strength - Toguro, Sensui, Raizen, Yomi - most of the main 'villains' had that. Still didn't mean there weren't ways around it - much like the dbz characters having to surpass themselves to reach that seemingly impossible level in order to defeat them. I *do* like YYH better, but it has a lot in common with DBZ when it comes to the villain's strengths and the fighting styles.

Heck, watching Yusuke and Sensui fight it out (before the rebirth, when they were mostly doing physical attacks) reminded me of nothing more than the Goku/Majin Vegeta fight. They were even using the same grins. ^_^;; And watching Hiei, Kuwa, and Kurama face Sensui was deja vu of the everyone versus 17 and 18 fight. >.<

Yeah, lots of similarities. Just think - doesn't the Yusuke/Rando fight remind you of Goku versus Frieza? At least in the beginning where he was all angry about what happened to Kuwa? The only difference - Goku didn't get emotional support from his friends in order to defeat Frieza, and it took him a lot longer to do it. The 'themes' of the fights were still quite similar - revenge for what the villains had done to the main character's comrades (Krillin/Kuwa).

I think comparing Hiei and Vegeta is much better than other anime comparisons because YYH and DBZ have a lot of similar themes. Yeah, the powers seem much different - but S class is as 'limitless' as the seemingly impervious villains in DBZ. Just think of Goku's 'parting thoughts' to Kid Buu and then watch the Yusuke/Yomi appocolyptic battle - they both have these impossible opponents, and both get the worst kick out of fighting a strong person. ^_^;

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:56 pm

Cloud Clone wrote:Ummm, quick question here: Why did Hiei become less powerful after he got his Jagan eye? Wasn't it supposed to make him more powerful?

Not at all.

No one survives the implant of a jagan because it sucks the life force out of the host (their youki - killing them). Kurama mentions that in the manga (Two Shots - the first time Hiei and Kurama met). Hiei got the jagan because it lets you find things. He got it to find the ice mountai (which floated and was hard to locate), to find his mother's teargen (which he lost in a battle when he was young), and to find Yukina (who he *would* have found if that human hadn't put wards around her).

The jagan didn't kill Hiei because he was horribly strong when he got it - S class. It took all his youki and left him as a D class demon (Koenma says that at the beginning of the Sensui arc). It wasn't until he started mastering the jagan (when he successfully called the dragon during his fight with Bui) that he really started getting strong again - and that was unprecedented (Koenma says that - no one has ever managed to summon the dragon because no one has ever survived the jagan implant - not only did Hiei survive it, he managed to regain enough strength to make the jagan work *for* him). And after he has the dragon, it was uphill from there. By the time Sensui shows up Hiei was a B class (he'd mastered the dragon), after that he goes up to A class (Yusuke's 'push' to get Kurama, Kuwa and Hiei to show their true strengths), and by the Makai arc Hiei is back at his original strength - S class (which we know because Sensui says Kurama and Hiei were once stronger - and they were both A class when he said that or they could have passed through the barrier).

The jagan wasn't meant to make anyone strong, and no one in their right mind would want it. The reason Shigure refused Hiei the first few times was because he knew it would kill him. The only reason he finally implanted it was because Hiei threatened to kill himself regardless. It was a sacrifice for the things he wanted to find (mother, teargem, sister). Those were the only things Hiei was living for (which you find out in the Makai arc, but I won't go into it - spoilers ^.~ ). To him, it was worth risking death to get the jagan. And being the stubborn person he is, he not only lived but made it work for him.

Yeah...I really like Hiei. ^_^

Daio Kaji · Post by **Daio Kaji** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:40 am

just wanna make a final thought about the flying so-called advantage

it doesn't make a lick of difference if someone can fly and their opponent can't unless the actual fight is happening in the air, Vegeta can fly around as much as he wants, it doesn't mean that Hiei is going to lose strength from it, if anything, Hiei will be resting while Vegeta flys around wasting energy, so eventually Vegeta will have to make some sort of attack, we know that Hiei can use a force field right? so energy attacks won't work. If Vegeta decided to use his Big Bang Attack or his Final Flash, Hiei could always use his dragon and go through Vegeta's attack. Vegeta's only choice would be to either cleverly get behind Hiei to use a quick Big Bang Attack (to injure Hiei, it wouldn't kill him cause Vegeta wouldn't have the time to charge a powerful one) or Vegeta would just have to stick to hand-to-hand combat

so as you can see, flying is about as usefull as breathing underwater or in space, it's doesn't work to ur advantage unless the battle is happening in a place where the advantage has some sort of effect, and i doubt that Hiei would willfully jump high up in the air, only to get juggled by Vegeta

of course... Vegeta could get Hiei into a bear hug and carryHiei into the air... but it doesn't mean Hiei will stand still while he gets pummeled, his sword would definately come in handy, to block with if nothing else

but none of this proves anything that gets us towards a conclusion, we know what we've known for a couple pages of this topic already.. there is no clear-cut ending to this fight, all we know is that it would be a kick-ass fight

but nothing else, Goku and Yusuke would probably step in and get both Hiei and Vegeta into head-locks and make them stop..

that'd be hilarious!
Vegeta:"LET GO OF ME, KAKAROTT!! I AM A PRINCE!!"
Goku:"Vegeta! this isn't the best time for that!"
...ambiguous?... extremely

OujiVegetasstalker · Post by **OujiVegetasstalker** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:49 pm

-_- *note to self, watch something to it entirity before commenting on it...* lol My bad, some how i kind of assumed that after the Dark tournment the series would end or something...i had no idea Hiei or the others would grow in skill and strength after that...*compareing Vegetas strength to Toguros is no long an option..will not happen again*

rosecrystal · Post by **rosecrystal** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:50 pm

What whould be funnier is if Trunks or Goten went to stop Vegeta.

I think that an other part of the fight to be addressed is what they are fighting for. Both animes seem to have any undered fighting to protect something type of theme.
So the one fighting for the most important reason normal wins.