Escaflowne... What do you think...?

[UncleMilo]

I really wanted to like Escaflowne.

When I saw the first 8 episodes, I was completely in love with the show. I loved the characters... except for Van, who I really hated... but I loved the show, I loved the themes, I loved all that was happening.

The show continued to go well... except that Van was more and more annoying and he didn't seem to be getting any better.

There were lots of good things going on in the story... political intrigue, inner turmoil, mysteries that I was interested in...

but something just went so very wrong at the end. The characters suddenly all gave off the feeling that they broke character to give us a very generic and typical ending.

For example... the only reason I can see for Van and Hitomi having any kind of relationship is because they are the two main characters... the chemistry between them was non-existant...

I just felt the show abandoned itself, which was a let down...

but I'm more disappointed with the show then anything else. I own the whole series and watch it now and again so don't think I hate the show...
but there you go...

As for the movie.... I thought the movie was very bad. The nonexistant story was surrounded by various versions of the cast of the tv show all fighting for their seconds of screen time.

"Hi! Remember me? I was in the tv show and I... whoops! Time's up! Bye!"

I honestly didn't care about anything that happened in the movie, I found nothing captivating about the characters or the world or anything of that nature. Sure it had great music and great animation... but great animation is nothing with an empty and meandering story.


Well... those were my thoughts...

-Uncle Milo

[CaTaClYsM]

the movie characters were consistent, and better than the oens in the series. Said it once and I'll say it again.

[Laven Atries]

From my Avatar and sig, you can probably tell that I like Escaflowne. I watched the first 9 or 10 episodes when they came on FOX kids several years ago, and loved the show. There was nothing about it that did not appeal to me. Unlike a lot of people, I really liked Van's character. When they took it off the air in the middle of a cliffhanger, I was so pissed. Finally I found it a couple years ago, and watched the series through, and I liked it just as much as I had. Only some of the episodes after 14 were kinda boring, but those were story and character developing episodes, so it was still worth watching.
The movie was so completely different that I didn't like it at first. I couldn't stand the animation, especially Allen. Van was pretty good, but everyone else looked too wierd. However, when I watched it again a while later, I enjoyed it. The animation was great, as well as the story. It seemed like it was another way things could have been in the series, just compressed into a single movie.







Possible spoilers on series below


And while a lot of the characters seemed to break character at the end, I don't think they really did. It was more that they finally came around to showing what they were really like, not what they pretended to be to the rest of the world. Their deepest desires were either altered or brought out by those fate machines right? So with that known, it's understandable that they would seem different than they had been. But that's just my oppinion, feel free to agree or rip it to shreds.

-Laven Atries

[PyrotheUnforgiven]

Escaflowne on foxkids.... What a waste.... They cut out good scenes... The japanese series and the movie in japanese is better.... not offence...

[dwchang]

I really wanted to like Escaflowne.

but something just went so very wrong at the end. The characters suddenly all gave off the feeling that they broke character to give us a very generic and typical ending.

For example... the only reason I can see for Van and Hitomi having any kind of relationship is because they are the two main characters... the chemistry between them was non-existant...

I just felt the show abandoned itself, which was a let down...

I very much disagree (although you're entitled to it). I think Vaughn (true spelling of name, this is from my friend who translated Bandai's version..they made him change it) and Hitomi's relationship is beautiful. Throughout the show you see that he begins to love her as well as her realizing her feelings for him. He always tries to protect her, but always screws up and just can't tell her. She goes through the same things and doesn't figure our her feelings until Episode 24. I very much liked the fact that it took so long for them to figure out their feelings. I also liked the fact it wasn't a typical romance like FY or something. I guess this isn't the best explanation, but I love their relationship.

As for the story ending, I thought the ending was anything, but typical. I mean...she left Gaea. The typical ending would be for them to be together. I found it beautiful that she went back home and yet they could still love each other and "see" each other. I find that love more powerful than sort of physical love or whatnot. I know people who get frustrated at that, but I think what they have is more beautiful.

I will give you a bit on the ending. It is a known fact that Escaflowne was first going to be 39 episode instead of 26. This is evident in the second half since they have to rush things to a conclusion. I've been told that some of the things they cut is more development of Hitomi's life on Earth. It's a bit difficult to swallow why she goes back to Earth instead of staying with her love, but if there was more development of her home life with her parents and friends, it makes sense. She has a life there. I'm also fairly sure the ending/story would be a bit more clear. However, I think the messages of fate (our ability to overcome it, etc.) and love are quite evident and clear.

Sorry for the lenghy response, but it's my favorite show and I sort of feel like you when defending Eva

[UncleMilo]

And for you people saying the story was "rushed" in the movie, you realize they have to cram basically a seasons worth of story(albeit different in many aspects) into a 90 minute or so movie right?

They most certainly weren't telling the series in 90 minutes. Honestly, I don't think there was much of a story there in the movie. No one was really doing anything... no one had enough time to do anything. There was a vague story that the movie thrust the characters forward to resolve and that was it.

There were no real points of drama, no real moments of crisis, nothing... just a vague sense of moving forward to the resolution.

The characters didn't even feel complete. Like everything else in the movie, they all felt like sentences. Single sentences.

The TV series may not have been as well animated, but the plot was stronger, the characters were much better defined, there was a hell of a lot more going for the series than the movie.

-Uncle Milo

[dwchang]

And for you people saying the story was "rushed" in the movie, you realize they have to cram basically a seasons worth of story(albeit different in many aspects) into a 90 minute or so movie right?

They most certainly weren't telling the series in 90 minutes. Honestly, I don't think there was much of a story there in the movie. No one was really doing anything... no one had enough time to do anything. There was a vague story that the movie thrust the characters forward to resolve and that was it.

There were no real points of drama, no real moments of crisis, nothing... just a vague sense of moving forward to the resolution.

The characters didn't even feel complete. Like everything else in the movie, they all felt like sentences. Single sentences.

The TV series may not have been as well animated, but the plot was stronger, the characters were much better defined, there was a hell of a lot more going for the series than the movie.

-Uncle Milo

As much as I love Escaflowne, I agree on the movie. It's WAY too fast and they *try* to make this story and have the same characters, but don't realize they can't do the same thing in 90 minutes. VERY rushed (although excellent animation).

I should note that although the movie is animated well...the series is still among the best in terms of TV series animation. For those of you who don't know, animation quality is generally Movie > OVA > TV series. Basically, movies get a huge budget and only have to animate 2 hours, while a TV series gets a comparable amount of money for 26 episodes. However, Escaflowne got a lot more money and hence the TV series has nearly OVA quality animation. IIRC, Macross Plus was the highest in production value and then Escaflowne and then Cowboy Bebop. I don't know anymore since I haven't watched anything new in a long time (and a lot of anime is now digital). So, I guess my point is that both the series and movie are animated excellently for their respeictive show types.

[UncleMilo]

I very much disagree (although you're entitled to it). I think Vaughn (true spelling of name, this is from my friend who translated Bandai's version..they made him change it) and Hitomi's relationship is beautiful. Throughout the show you see that he begins to love her as well as her realizing her feelings for him. He always tries to protect her, but always screws up and just can't tell her. She goes through the same things and doesn't figure our her feelings until Episode 24. I very much liked the fact that it took so long for them to figure out their feelings. I also liked the fact it wasn't a typical romance like FY or something. I guess this isn't the best explanation, but I love their relationship.

As for the story ending, I thought the ending was anything, but typical. I mean...she left Gaea. The typical ending would be for them to be together. I found it beautiful that she went back home and yet they could still love each other and "see" each other. I find that love more powerful than sort of physical love or whatnot. I know people who get frustrated at that, but I think what they have is more beautiful.

I will give you a bit on the ending. It is a known fact that Escaflowne was first going to be 39 episode instead of 26. This is evident in the second half since they have to rush things to a conclusion. I've been told that some of the things they cut is more development of Hitomi's life on Earth. It's a bit difficult to swallow why she goes back to Earth instead of staying with her love, but if there was more development of her home life with her parents and friends, it makes sense. She has a life there. I'm also fairly sure the ending/story would be a bit more clear. However, I think the messages of fate (our ability to overcome it, etc.) and love are quite evident and clear.

Sorry for the lenghy response, but it's my favorite show and I sort of feel like you when defending Eva

Let me just go through this point for point.

You know David Flemming? I never heard him mention the forced spelling change... but when I last talked to him he was going on a lengthy discourse about how another company screwed up his translation... very badly... and how he was forced to rewrite stuff against his better judgement. If David says it's Vaughn, then I'd believe him. I know the pronounciation is "Vaughn", but I have never seen the spelling as anything other than Van.

Anyway... I will move on and will use the Vaughn spelling.

I am a big fan of romance titles. I have to disagree with you slightly about FY being typical, because it's one of the few titles I know of where the two characters who are in love actually admit it and act on it and that the love story is resolved by the end of the series.

When I saw Escaflowne, I had assumed what you were saying was going to happen. I figured that Vaughn would become a better person as the show moved on... but for me he never did. I felt that the actions Merle carried out (like that great scene where she stood between the Robot and Vaughn... I mean... she had nothing and could easily have been kicked aside or squashed or otherwise killed...) had much more emotional strength. Same with the story between Allen and Hitomi.

I just never bought the relationship between Hitomi and Vaughn. I really felt it happened only because it was supposed to. My comment of the anime feeling typical was more about Vaughn and Hitomi getting together... it was like everyone else stopped being who they were so that these two could end up together.

I am very glad that Hitomi went back home and that Vaughn didn't follow. That part of the ending I did like, except that I would have liked a final scene between her and her friend... you know... when she officially got back to Earth.

Since you have informed me of the fact that this show was supposed to be 39 eps, that would make more sense. I bet if they had taken some more time to help develop the realization of love and fleshed it out more, I would have felt less unhappy about the ending.

Your other points are extremely valid... It would have been nice if they had developed more of Hitomi's home life (as I said above, it would have been nice to see Hitomi reunited with her friend)

NEVER APOLOGIZE FOR BEING VERBOSE!! The fact that you wrote such a lengthy response is an indication of how the series matters to you and how you wish to express feelings you got from the show. I respect all your views and opinions and I get a better grasp of what you're talking about because you expressed yourself in a lengthy reply.

I think the main disagreement we have is over the Vaughn/Hitomi relationship... because it is clear that we both liked the series...

Thanks for your views!

-Uncle Milo

[Lyrs]

I loved the series but the movie could've been longer and more stretched out so that everything was not so crammed up.

/end

[dwchang]

Let me just go through this point for point.

You know David Flemming? I never heard him mention the forced spelling change... but when I last talked to him he was going on a lengthy discourse about how another company screwed up his translation... very badly... and how he was forced to rewrite stuff against his better judgement. If David says it's Vaughn, then I'd believe him. I know the pronounciation is "Vaughn", but I have never seen the spelling as anything other than Van.

Anyway... I will move on and will use the Vaughn spelling.

Yeah I know Dave Fleming quite well. He lives in Urbana, IL which is my alma-mater. I went to UIUC and was an officer in our anime club (JAC - Japanese Animation Club). Dave subbed a lot of our stuff for the club and I talked to him at our club showings ever week for 4 years. We liked showing things that weren't out in the states yet and since he was doing things for Bandai/Pioneer/etc. and he let us show his stuff. In fact, hate to brag, but we saw (the soon-to-be commercial) Escaflowne, Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, Lain, etc. at least 2 years before they were released. His translations are some of the best in the industry and he does his research.

One thing I am upset is that his translation for Eva was rejected and Nadelman's (sp) wasn't. Dave hates Nadelman quite a bit since he's only had 2 years of japanese while Dave has a masters. I've seen Dave's Eva through JAC and there *is* a difference. Nothing HUGE, but Dave does his research and explains things better in liner notes and also a few translations. So in short (haha), I know Dave .

As for the Vaughn thing, Bandai made him change this as well as Balgus. Van used to be called Vaughn (like the pronounciation in the series) and Balgus is Vargas (named after something in Norse Mythology I believe).

I am a big fan of romance titles. I have to disagree with you slightly about FY being typical, because it's one of the few titles I know of where the two characters who are in love actually admit it and act on it and that the love story is resolved by the end of the series.

I think this fundamental disagreement may be the difference between our points on the shows. I'll be honest, but I dislike Fushigi Yuugi QUITE a bit. I won't get into to details since A) I'm in a VERY small minority (and realize this) and B) that's a totally different discussion (which will involve much flaming directed towards me ).

Basically, I think FY is more typical since Tamahome and Miaka end up together in like Episode 5 or something and there really wasn't any build-up to it. You knew they were gonna end up together and they did it even earlier than expected. Then again, one could debate that the show IS about their love and therefore you need to have them in love early (shrug). I won't go any further since I know this'll be a long and heated discussion, but I do realize I am in a VERY small minority so it doesn't matter.

When I saw Escaflowne, I had assumed what you were saying was going to happen. I figured that Vaughn would become a better person as the show moved on... but for me he never did. I felt that the actions Merle carried out (like that great scene where she stood between the Robot and Vaughn... I mean... she had nothing and could easily have been kicked aside or squashed or otherwise killed...) had much more emotional strength. Same with the story between Allen and Hitomi.

As I have said in the private message you sent, I agree on the Merle points. She does love Vaughn and is a lot stronger of a character than you initially think. In fact, I have a cel from that scene (my only Merle cel).

As for Vaughn, I do somewhat agree with your points. Although I like Vaughn as a character, he is very typical. He is the revenge-seeking King whose country was destroyed and comes to age throughout the show. This is a very common character throughout anime, but for some reason I still liked him. I've debated this with friends, but for some reason I like a stereotypical character...I guess all of have a few of those and can't explain it (for example, liking the token badass of a show like Spike or Alucard). I don't know, but I like these scenes with Vaughn:

1) Episode 4 when Allen tells Vaughn that Samurai's die to protect other people. This leads to Vaughn making Dilandau's men off of the Crusade.
2) After Vaughn is rescued by Allen, he looks at his sword and you start to realize that he himself is finding himself.
3) After he kills all of Dilandau's men and starts becoming scared. This leads to him maturing and realizing his responsibilities.
4) Vaughn realizing he loves Hitomi while sitting on the roof with Merle.

So I guess in conclusions, although his development and characteristics are very stereotypical, for some odd reason I still liked him. It may be stereotypical, I thought the scenes were done well. This is probably because of the animation quality and voice acting of Seki Tomokazu (shrug).

I just never bought the relationship between Hitomi and Vaughn. I really felt it happened only because it was supposed to. My comment of the anime feeling typical was more about Vaughn and Hitomi getting together... it was like everyone else stopped being who they were so that these two could end up together.

I am very glad that Hitomi went back home and that Vaughn didn't follow. That part of the ending I did like, except that I would have liked a final scene between her and her friend... you know... when she officially got back to Earth.

I guess I sort of see your point since Allen sort of just abandaons his feelings for Hitomi, but one could say that's because his sister is back in his life and he was just really filling that void in his life. Although you knew from the start that they were going to end up together, I liked the twists and turns their relationship had. Given, some of these are typical like her falling for Allen, but I liked the little-by-little realization the two had of their feelings for each other. Unlike FY, this was a relationship that took time to develop. I find it a bit easier to believe after 24 episodes they are in love as opposed to 5 (i guess). Here are a few examples of what I mean:

1) Episode 1 - After Vaughn criticisizes Hitomi and she slaps him, he has this look of gentleness and realizes what he's done. This isn't really romance, but I found it touching.
2) Just various ways they look at each other. I think the eyes in the show are animated. They portray the emotions fairly well without even needing to have the characters saying something.
3) Episode 19 - After Vaughn sees Hitomi kissing Allen. That look of complete and utter disappointment.
4) Episode 24 - When the two realize that they love each other and see each other on Earth. Especially when they hug and Vaughn's face of surprise.
5) Their goodbye...don't need to say much here .
6) The overall relationshpi that they don't need to be together and yet love each other (very non-western romance and IMO deeper).

I know there is a lot more, but I just can't think of it. Basically I guess the relationship can be hit or miss and for me it was a big hit. I like the non-traditional relationship and how deep their love is. I also like how they both mature as people (Hitomi becomes more mature about her powers, etc. and Vaughn about his responsibilities, etc.) and their feelings strengthen. I've heard people at AnimeExpo (where it premiered in 2000 I think) people scoffed and laughed at the ending and Shoji Kawamori was very upset. He asked why and it was because they weren't together and twice they don't physically end up together. I hate to say this (this is gonna sound real mean), but I think this is a fundamental Western vs. Eastern culture differences. This is very similar to people not understanding Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragons ending (which I won't get into).

Since you have informed me of the fact that this show was supposed to be 39 eps, that would make more sense. I bet if they had taken some more time to help develop the realization of love and fleshed it out more, I would have felt less unhappy about the ending.

Your other points are extremely valid... It would have been nice if they had developed more of Hitomi's home life (as I said above, it would have been nice to see Hitomi reunited with her friend)

(nod nod). I heard Shoji Kawamori even had all 39 episodes scripted and pretty much just had to cut here and there. This would definitely strengthen some of the things you mentioned.