I just realized something sad. [about fansubs]

Kristyonna · Post by **Kristyonna** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:41 pm

dwchang wrote:You're missing a big point in your argument. With American TV shows, they make their revenue from commercials and whatnot. Anime Distributors do not have commercials and do not air on TV (for the most part..and when they do Cartoon Network gets the $$$ for the commercials). Distributors like ADV and so on BUY the licenses to distribute the anime in a foreign country (since it is native to Japan and aired on TV). In turn, they mass produce DVDs and tapes and sell them. It's simple supply and demand.

I think you're saying this because you don't understand what my point is. (And so far, it looks like nobody else does either.)
We're talking about paying for something that is absolutely free if you happen to live in Japan and is also free in the U.S. until it gets licensed. In my earlier post I made the point that, as far as advertising goes, I record everything I watch and fast forward through commercials anyway. And I would do this if I lived in Japan. Advertising executives would say I'm a criminal for this but I honestly just don't care. Everyone knows that's what VCR's are made for.

So YES, I am a bad person because I record the television I watch and then skip through the commercials. I enjoy watching fansubs where someone was kind enough to make translations for me so I can understand what's going on but even if I lived in Japan, I would STILL fastfoward through the commercials and get it with no benefit going to anyone but myself. So yes, I enjoy getting something for nothing. I don't mind getting chewed out for this but so far I *haven't* been because nobody seems to get what I'm saying.

As far as supporting the industry in America: I actually liked it better when it wasn't so main stream and anyone who found out you watched it didn't automatically associate you with porn or Dragonball Z. If one day anime becomes so main stream that they'll show it uncut with the subtitles on U.S. television, that'll be great. So, assuming that could ever happen, licensing anime for the U.S. could be a temporarily bad thing that could lead to a greater good. But until then...

I expect to be chewed out for this. Just make sure you understand what I'm saying first. And THEN we can get some interesting dialogue going.

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:09 pm

Kristyonna wrote:I think you're saying this because you don't understand what my point is. (And so far, it looks like nobody else does either.)
We're talking about paying for something that is absolutely free if you happen to live in Japan and is also free in the U.S. until it gets licensed. In my earlier post I made the point that, as far as advertising goes, I record everything I watch and fast forward through commercials anyway. And I would do this if I lived in Japan. Advertising executives would say I'm a criminal for this but I honestly just don't care. Everyone knows that's what VCR's are made for.

I'm pretty sure most of us know what you're complaining about. You're saying that it's unfair for companies to charge for something that is free some place else. It's not that hard to understand. It's also not that hard to answer that "injustice."

Y'see, you already answered your own dilmena. Go live in Japan. Then you *can* watch it for free. It's not American TV companies responsibility to carry the entire world's broadcast.

That's the reason US distributors decide to license it...because they see a need for it (demand). Just because you want to see something that is free in another country doesn't give you the right to watch it for free here when it's breaking the law right? Given, you and I already agree on that.

What I am getting at is that even if it is aired for free in Japan, that doesn't at all justify your disgust with US distributors selling it. They have every right since they bought the rights to distribute. Japanese stations like NHK do not have any rights to broadcast here so tough luck.

At the same time, you mention you watch with subtitles. You know those too cost money (translators, computer programs, timers, etc.). Given, fansubbers do it for free, but we already went into the logistics of that with licensing (which was the original point of the thread).

OmniStrata · Post by **OmniStrata** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:16 pm

I'm surprised at the sheer number of losers in the anime world...

seriously...

I make less $$$ than some 3rd world countries... And I'm STILL buying Please Teacher, Ai Yori Aoshi, and Chobits [I still got the digisub cds, but I'll coaster them later since there are some AMV filler on them...]

I can't buy them the instant they appear, but I'm not dumb enough to buy expensive clothing and then say "oh, anime's too expensive..." [I know LOTS of idiots with stupidity to that degree...]

All ya'll digisub lovers sux0rs C0X0RS... Digisubs exist solely for one purpose. To be thrown into the garbage disposal... I should know this better than anyone since I've done a LARGE majority of my amvs in digisub format. The instant a digisub is licensed, [bbbgrrrrrrrrrrrrr] Those digisubs you have should be trash compacted...

Currently, I'm probably gonna just chuck all my Inu Yasha Digisubs on CD... The series is officially turning gay on me and at 3 eps a CD, fuck you licensors!!! Yeah, I WILL throw them out [after I salvage the several AMVS I have on them...]

The law the REAL anime lover follows...
"TRY BEFORE YOU BUY!!!"

Losers...
"FREE ANIME!!!"

It doesn't get much simpler than those two lines....

rubyeye · Post by **rubyeye** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:20 pm

Kristyonna wrote: Advertising executives would say I'm a criminal for this but I honestly just don't care. Everyone knows that's what VCR's are made for.

They can't call you a criminal:

In 1984 the US Supreme Court ruled that home video taping does NOT infringe on copyrights.

I learned this in Video Production this past semester.

_________

As for the whole Fansubbing issue...With Hunter Robin won't be out until October...It's been fansubbed for about a year now...I've seen the entire series several times and still have the files....I'll be dead by September ....You think I would wait to see IF it ever got licensed, and given that it did, I won't live long enough to buy it, as if I could afford it.

There's a lot a anime that won't ever be licensed:

Ikuteru Futari
To Heart
Kokoro Library
Hanaukyo Maids
Square of the Moon
Masquerade 2
Moimoro Sisters

Yeah, I got them... you think I'm going to wait....FOR WHAT!!!

____________

Besides fansubs are NOT FREE!! If you are getting your internet connection for free and not paying for electricity or cable, then you better share with the rest of us how you are doing it.

rubyeye · Post by **rubyeye** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:22 pm

Oh yeah, Omni..

The law the REAL anime lover follows...
"TRY BEFORE YOU BUY!!!"

I do believe in this, but are there really that many WORTH buying??

rubyeye · Post by **rubyeye** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:36 pm

Damn, something else I just thought about...

You don't have to BUY anime..

RENT IT!!

That's what Block Buster, Hastings, NetFlix, and GreenCine are in business for. ANd it might be even cheaper.

SarahtheBoring · Post by **SarahtheBoring** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:55 pm

I don't think anyone's complaining about downloading series that are never going to be licensed. That was never in question, because fansubs, it's pretty much proven, do expand the fanbase of a series BEFORE it is licensed.

It is downloading AFTER licensing that's the question here.

And listen to dwchang, he argues much sense and with much calmness. 8)

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:59 pm

SarahtheBoring wrote:And listen to dwchang, he argues much sense and with much calmness. 8)

Nandesde?!?!?! (in his most uncalm voice)

TsumiKi · Post by **TsumiKi** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:54 pm

*sings* This is the arguement that never ends
It goes on and on again . . .

Let's recap before you all run circles around your posts.
We have declared that

1) Unless you live in a country where anime is either aired right away on TV, such as Japan, or where there is basically no market at all, like PR, then the downloading of entire domestically released anime series with few excepts (those running over a hundred episodes. Hell, those running over 50, lets say) is neither legal nor ethical. Those who do this are considered greedy by all who have expressed like opinions here.

2) The Supreme Court has ruled that recording shows on TV is not illegal, nor is serfing through the commercials. We have a choice to watch, or to ignore.

3) Fansubbs overall are a good thing. To all those fansubbers out there - I respect you all and wish there was some way to express my gratitude. Fansubbs reate a fan base so that when it is domestically licensed and released, the show will sell better than if it just came out, considering we have no method of viewing these things otherwise. It also introduces viewers to series that will never, for various reasons, be released domestically and therefor most people would have never known about.

4) As soon as a series is licensed, the fansubbers and anime sub distributers should stop distribution of all licensed material. However, there is arguement here about whether a person should or should not stop downloading the series before it hits the shelfs a year or so later. Some of us would wait, some of us are running out of time, and some of us enjoy the series so much that to wait such a long time to see it all would be aggravating and inconvienient. However, in the big picture, getting anime is not the most important thing in life. There are a lot of things more worthy of stressing yourselves about.

5) Previewing an anime by downloading an episode or two is okay, as long as you seriously consider buying it (if it is a domestic release).

6) The more anime becomes mainstream, the lower the prices will become. Supply and demand. However, the more anime that gets licensed and released, the less that people are going to be able to ethically and morally get online. People who were used to just downloading things are having to get used to waiting for their release.

7) Cheap Taiwanese rip offs with subbs in bad English and Chinese are only morally acceptable when the series has not been licensed. Even then, fansubbs are generally preferable.

8) Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Stop bashing other people if you don't agree with them. Instead, try to find out WHY they have formed that opinion. In the end, you might not agree, but you may understand. And that is important.

9) Renting anime is always an option. But there is a problem - most people who rent are only able to rent old releases. Half price stores, e-bay, and other online book and DVD stores are a good place to search for discounted and cheap anime. (See #7)

10) No matter what your income, if you are a fan of anime, support it by buying DVDs and not just having the subbs. It doesn't mean you have to buy all the series you have in fansub format. It just means that if you liked something so much that you want to see similar animes, or you like the anime company that releases it, then show your support by paying for it. As was mentioned, no one said you had to shop at an ultra expensive Suncoast like store. You can find good deals if you look.

11) part of the cost of the DVD is paying the Amerian voice actors, the subbing fees, the digitization and special features. You don't get special features with a fansub.

Now, I think I have covered everything. Morals and people's views of morality are going to be different. There will always be an arguement over this. The question is, are you all going to get all worked up over something you can not change, or are you going to calmly state not only your views, but the reasons behind those views and try to make people understand how and why you feel the way you do? Who knows, maybe it will change the way they think.

Now if you will excuse me, my hands are cramping up.

NicholasDWolfwood · Post by **NicholasDWolfwood** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:02 pm

Here's my take on it.

I download anime, I admit it. On my dad's PC, I've got over 180GB of Anime, and I want to erase it all, just for space for DVD source for AMVs. I know what I di (downloading anime) was wrong, but if I want a series and can't afford it and neither can my parents, I'll download it and keep it until I can buy it.

For example, downstairs I've got eDonkey download 2Mbit DivX5 rips of the Revival of Evangelion. With the exchange rates going up and down, it'll be hella tough to figure out how much it'd be to buy the Revival on DVD. But I have vowed that when I get a job (here in NJ you can legally get a job at 14) I will buy the Revival. I've vowed to work fulltime in the summer just to afford things I want, such as computer parts, Anime DVDs, etc.