EVA Ending (MAJOR SPOILER WARNING)

[AtomicWeezleman]

By the way, I was always mystified why noone ever asked what Gendo 'said' to Ritsuko before shooting her. It may be trivial, even unimportant, but damn it's annoying. My bet would be "Ritsuko, I am your father." Even though it doesn't fit the timeline, Ritsuko does call him a liar after...

I have heard that same suggestion as well.
here's a few more:
1)I did love you
2)Look out behind you...
3)You mom was better than you...
4)I did it for you...
5)I loved your mom...

Some of them are plausable, and some are just for fun...

Still have my theory (and a shirt supposedly in the works) that Pen Pen shot Kaiji... because none suspects the penguin (shifty eyes)

Markedman247

at least it's good for comic gags, [j00 are my hero!!]
My vote was, "The sound for this is muted so I'm gonna make this quick"

[yes, the dub style fast talk dialogue!!]

Hmm, i always thought it was

I LIKE PIE!


Mrscribble, of course kaji got shot......

Kaji - You're late.........BANG screen goes black, kaji is never seen again...... bastards, never even got a funeral........ poor sod........ unless he sneaked away after getting shot..........hmmmmmm

[dwchang]

Alright time for my big reply to all this...I'll try and answer as much as I see:

Now, this is the one thing I find funny (almost perverse) is that throughout all of the "coping" done in the LCL, Shinji awakens and finds Asuka beside him. The first thing he does is attempt to choke her. Yep, Shinji learned his lesson. Life is great. He has a purpose. And now, its time to choke out a woman that kinda hurt him as much as anyone. He may have loved her but that wasn't love. The crying showed love... in that... "Oh lord, did not I learn anything?" sorta way.

The reason for him choking her is to validate his own existence. He was just in the LCL and all that "trippy" stuff yes? He choked her since it validates that he is back on earth and in "true" reality. Another more obvious reason is because that was the last thing he was doing to her. And even if he finds himself and his own self-worth, that doesn't at all mean that he doesn't get angry when people hurt him. That's a natural thing.

By the way, I was always mystified why noone ever asked what Gendo 'said' to Ritsuko before shooting her. It may be trivial, even unimportant, but damn it's annoying. My bet would be "Ritsuko, I am your father." Even though it doesn't fit the timeline, Ritsuko does call him a liar after...

He says "I truly did love you." I believe it's on one the trading cards from Gainax or something. Oh and thanks for saying what I said are "facts." I hate how people think most of this is opinions...most of it is IN THE SHOW. Also yeah, I agree on the Chairman Keel thing and sorry if I gave the impression of fact.

First off, let me state this since this will seem a bit flamatory. Omni, you're my friend and I respect you, but I wholeheartedy disagree with you on this. Also...let me post this again since you did not read the entire thread (which I think is common courtesy when replying ).

One quick disclaimer: If you hate Evangelion and so on and have some stupid comment to say, I do ask politely that you don't. This is obviously an Evangelion thread for Evangelion fans to discuss things. I was kind enough not to post in the "Dubs" thread at the request of Omnistrata and thus ask the same courtesy be shown.

Anyway...as for your actual post since it's not "stupid comments"...

How can I [not you, ME] possibly enjoy a series where the director practically says "fuck you" to his audience. He recieved hate-mails and death threats [and then shows them! what nerve!] and still keeps going? I heard he killed himself already. Till I hear otherwise, I can only say, damn, what loss of great potential...

Look at this way...say you created something that was your life work (which Eva is for Anno) and people loved it up until the very end, which is the entire meaning..the entire reason for this work. They reject your "true" ending...they send you death threats...DEATH THREATS about it. Would you not be a bit frustrated that your supposed "fans" rejected what you wanted to say and worse...threatened to kill you over it?

I don't blame Anno one bit for his response to the fans rejecting and "not getting" his ending. I'm sure I would feel the same if my fans did a 180 on me like that. Loving me one minute and then being so fickle as to threaten me.

The ending has everyone killed. Why should I give a fuck of character development, relationships started etc. etc. No, I'm not a [must be happy ending] type of anime viewer, but the ending MUST have some point to it. Apparently, from what I see here, Anno just says, "fuck you" and like rips his own series to pieces.

As for him being depressed and whatnot, yeah that's how he felt PRIOR to the creation of Evangelion. In fact, Evangelion is his response to his depression and is really a story of his own struggles and how HE found self-worth. To a degree, he is Shinji.

At the same time, I hate to come across as mean, but I think you've completely misunderstood the meaning and plot of Evangelion (Again I suggest reading over the entire thread and namely my own LENGHTY post that explains things) and thus your reason for hatred...confusion (which isn't unheard of. Most people who hate the show don't understand it or come to the wrong conclusions).

The main thing I think you're missing is that Evangelion is depressing and everyone is dead. In fact, the opposite is true, it's uplifiting in that people find their self-worth/answers and are all still alive. The fact Shinji and Asuka came out of the LCL sea (people on Earth NEVER died...we lost our AT fields and became LCL) shows that EVERYONE on Earth can find their self-worth and lead happy lives where others don't define who we are. I find this ending QUITE uplifting and optimistic. And again...the people of Earth never died, they "evolved" to the next step...one giant LCL ocean where we live without AT fields to hurt each other.

But in the end [a fitting phrase I might add...] it was all for shits. they all die. So why bother? Why care about something that starts up, then falls flat on its face?

But you see all of it DOES make sense..it never fell on it's face. It sets things up for the end. Every piece that is laid down plot-wise and character-wise adds to the eventual ending. I find it amazing how well everything links together (both in the surface plot and meaning). Almost everything was planned from the start...you can tell based on how precise everything is and how it all ties in. It still amazes me.

I *strongly* suggest reading over this thread and possibly re-watching the show. I think you are missing something truly fundamental to the enjoyment and understanding of Evangelion and, again this'll sound mean, but I don't think you're that qualified to condemn it the way you so vocally do. At the same time, I don't mind people hating the show, but at the same time, I think they should at the very least read/think about things before blindly hating it for their own confusion. So yeah...please read things and watch it again...I think you might walk out differently the 2nd time and with certain knowledge.

Again please refer to my line above about the flammatory nature of this thread. You're still my buddy...feel free to IM me .

P.S. Misato isn't anymore "real" than any of the other characters. She is another exaggeration of a personality trait that I'm sure all of us possess to a degree. I believe in Episode 25 they talk about how she has sex for her to validate her own existence and worth. How she puts on an exterior that is cheery, but inside is dealing with her own demons and so on. She is very similar to :gasp: Shinji. Shinji finds his worth from piloting an Eva and people accepting him and their impressions of him (not his own definition of who he is, but others)...he also hides all this. So yeah..all the characters are "real" in that they are exaggerations of "disorders" we possess.

I can see where you're comming from. However, after reading this entire thread a new possibility occured to me. As dwchang said, episode 26 related only Shinji's thoughts, but everyone was going through a similar process, struggling to make the same decision. If Shinji made the choice to leave the LCL, maybe everyone else did as well. If shinji survived, perhaps everyone else did. I know that EoE shows Shinji and Asuka in a desolate place with no one else around, but that could just be the setting, like some remote island or something. The fact that Asuka is there though may actually lend some creedance to the idea that everyone else survived. Unless Liriel is in some way correct in that Asuka is just a representaion of different people Shinji knew, but I don't really see that.

Even still, the anime is only an attempt to illistrate what goes on inside our own minds. The character development was not for nothing even if everyone died because it represented in part the development we all go through. And yes, eventually we all die too. Hopefully that doesn't mean our own develoment is a waste.

Anyway, just a few thoughts.

I applaud such a well-thought reply. I think you say things quite well and I couldn't agree more. Given, I won't lie that the plot is pretty cool, but it's just a vehicle for exactly what you say above. As you said, the entire meaning is to show that everyone (even the viewer) can find their self-worth...their reasons for livng...not for others, but for yourself. Anno was using Eva as a vehicle to tell his own journey from depression to finally triumphing hoping (I guess) that some others might also find their answers. I find that...amazing. Bravo.

I can see that this is one of those shows that mean a lot to people

Well first off, don't get me wrong, I'm not this hugely depressed person that got enlightened by the show (which may be shocking based on how much I know and how much I defend it). Even though I am happy within my own life, it's still great to see something so awesome and optimistic (even uplifting). I may already know what it was saying (within my own life), but to see a "cartoon" :gasp: do it just amazes me and thus why I defend it. It's probably the most meaningful anime I've ever seen and probably up there in terms of even "normal" movies. That's why I defend it. I just like it that much and what it stands for. So yeah...put down the phones for suicide hotline . Funny how it's still not my #1 anime though...weird.

Needless to say, I am still a bit skeptical about the show. There are several points that are always gonna be there for debate and I can't always see the POV of every poster.

I really did hate Evangelion. Still consider it a bit of a "haughty" anime. But, I have actually grown to accept it. I see it as something that could keep discourse going for a very long time. Remember its almost, if not, ten years old (you can correct me on this). How many shows can you say actually give reason and conversation about the events in the show 10 years after their making?

Well I can understand some skepticism, but I implore you to try and watch the show again with such knowledge and see what you get out of it. At the same time, I understand your hatred since well..you at least demonstrated that you've read the thread and thought about it. PLEASE don't get me wrong people. I am not trying to be like "If you hate eva, you're stupid." I just ask that people at least think about it before basing an opinion...to read the replies that TRY and explain things. That's the least you can do before hating something and ridiculing those that like it (which you're not doing and I appreciate it)

Oh and yeah, Eva is 10 years (maybe 11) old. And I agree..how many shows still create discussion that are that old? Only the great ones . There must be a reason why we keep talking about .

Doing it with mechs was an ingenious idea but once you know the names of the angels, how they fit into the whole plan, and the plan by Man to try to attempt to evolve by his own hand and not through the will of a devine figure, it will step on a few toes. On one hand, man has free will but when free will tries to prove that God (or other Diety as per your belief) doesn't exist and that "ascension" can only be attained by man and man alone. Not that NGE shows that is how things should be, but Gendo tried and failed.

Yeah, you do a pretty good job of summing up the surface story (which is also slightly confusing). Basically SEELE wants man to evolve to a phase where we can't hurt each other with AT fields and live in our happy little worlds. This is done by defeating the Angels and causing Third Impact with the forbidden union of Adam and Lilith. That's all the plot really is. Again though, this is just a vehicle.

As with the Matrix, no one can be completely told about NGE. They must experience it for themselves. Hatred or enlightenment. Answers or questions. As long as it makes you think, that's the point of it all. If it didn't, it wouldn't be the beloved or reviled classic that it is.

Yup. That's what I'm asking from you Omni .

Wait... Kaji got shot?

I thought Kaji shot someone else for being late.

Yup, he was shot. He knew too much and was even telling others about the secrets (like Misato). He said "Oh you're late" because he already expected he would be killed. He had accepted this and thus the non-chalant "Oh, you're late." It didn't tip you off when Misato cried at the answering machine message where he says goodbye?

Given, you're probably being sarcastic and making a joke

[Daio Kaji]

nice way to catch up dwchang [clap-clap]
btw, with all ur experience with eva, and ur appreciated posting, i don't remember where u stood on the 'who shot kaji' argument.

at first i thought it was misato herself, but then ppl started crying about it and saying it was just a regular gov agent or even gendo himself, but i think that it has to be important who killed him, what death in this show ISN'T important or built up to in some sort of way

i'm doubting my own position on this arguement so i'm re-watching the show to get sum facts together and see if i can find a motive for sumone...or a regret [dun-dun-DUN]

[dwchang]

nice way to catch up dwchang [clap-clap]
btw, with all ur experience with eva, and ur appreciated posting, i don't remember where u stood on the 'who shot kaji' argument.

at first i thought it was misato herself, but then ppl started crying about it and saying it was just a regular gov agent or even gendo himself, but i think that it has to be important who killed him, what death in this show ISN'T important or built up to in some sort of way

i'm doubting my own position on this arguement so i'm re-watching the show to get sum facts together and see if i can find a motive for sumone...or a regret [dun-dun-DUN]

My answer is fairly simple. I think it was a government agent probably sent by Gendo/NERV or SEELE. I've heard the Misato theory, but that would mess with the fact she loves him and also by the fact she cries when she hears the message he left. I've heard the argument is that she's crying since she realizes what she does, but I don't think she would do that anyway. He was helping her out anyway. If it was her, I think (since it would be important) they would've provided more evidence like her receiving the order or something.

So yeah...I think it's a government agent or something.

[MrScribble]

Hah, I knew kaji got shot, I was just playing.

As for Eva... there was this one thing I allways thought was odd.

Kaworu was able to sync. effortlessly with eva 02 because they were both made of Adam... yet Rei (who was made out of Lillith and Yui) takes 6 months to sync. with Eva 01, even though Eva 01 is made from Lillith and has Yui's spirit in it.

Bah, I sound like an upset fanboy, hehe.

[the Black Monarch]

Perhaps I misunderstood, but what I got out of your statement is that the glass shattering scene took place prior to us becoming LCL...this is where the "sea of LCL" came from yes? Because that is wrong since we had to be in the LCL (instrumentality) for that glass shattering scene to occur (during it).

What I meant by "Sea of LCL" was the scene where Rei is sitting on Shinji. Shinji asks where they are, and Rei says they're in the sea of LCL.

Oh, and that 'sandbox' bit... Freudian field-day. The shape of the entire play area is symbolically representative of the uterus etc, IMO. Real freaky stuff

Sigmund Freud was a rambling coke monkey. Pay no attention to him.

the only thing that asuka has from misato is the eyes ..... and its pointless to say the eyes are that color cos of the light.......cos if the light changed the hue of her eyes, how come the bandages didnt change color????

Animation error? Or maybe that her eyes are not the same color as her bandages... or they reflectlight differently because they're made of different materials... or any number of things

When Shinji blatantly rejects the false reality by saying "this is one of the possible realities?"

"This is one possible reality" does NOT equal "I reject this possible reality"

Yui explicitely states that everyone has the choice to come back to Earth if they choose

Actually, she says something along the lines of "people imagining themselves with spirits... she mentions nothing along the lines of choosing or decision-making or returning to Earth, and only a vague reference to physical form. Everything else you've said, I agree with.

Rei/Lilith rejected Gendo (when he had his hand in there) and chose Shinji instead

Actually, it was just Rei, not Rei/Lillith...

(/me already sees The Black Monarch coming in here and saying it can't be right since it says that Rei "appears to have no emotion."...I'm willing to even bet on that as his reply).

Actually, the line was "apparently lacks emotion," and apparently, she really doesn't lack emotion in the series. This and a dozen other things that don't make sense.

"His body is totally machine from backbone down."

Which is false, since his backbone looks like the ONLY part of his body that is machine (not that we get a really good look after he turns into tang)

During the fight in EoE, she actually snaps out of her funk

Oh, she snaps, but not out of her funk...

And she re-emerges but in her MIND she was hurt from the assault and thus her form is that of a bandaged woman. She's seen Rei numerous times (in her disposable bodies) in her bandages so this image forms her new appearance

Hey, that's a pretty cool theory! But if you'll notice, the eye and arm that got bandaged were the same ones that got skewered by the lances during and after her fight. I think that's a slightly more plausible explanation than yours, although we'll never know for sure.

By the way, I was always mystified why noone ever asked what Gendo 'said' to Ritsuko before shooting her. It may be trivial, even unimportant, but damn it's annoying. My bet would be "Ritsuko, I am your father." Even though it doesn't fit the timeline, Ritsuko does call him a liar after...

When I splice episodes 25 and 26 into the movie, I'll be sure to include that tidbit from Star Wars. Really.

Evangelion was SOO going to be my number one anime. It's startup and presentation was nothing short of epic. It's character design was unique and it was produced by a well renowned company: Gainax. Had awesome music and the characters where all lovable and serious. Especially Misato. She seemed the most real out of all the characters. But in the end [a fitting phrase I might add...] it was all for shits. they all die. So why bother? Why care about something that starts up, then falls flat on its face?

As a fan of the Alien movies (starring Sigourney Weaver), I honestly think it doesn't matter as long as everything else was really good and at least one person survives. I used to hate Alien 3 because Ripley died at the end, but now I consider it just as strong a movie as the second and fourth (face it, the first was just a well-done "B" movie)

Wait... Kaji got shot? I thought Kaji shot someone else for being late

LOL of course! Why didn't I think of that? Really, now that I think about it, I have no idea why I just assumed Kaji was the one who got shot. Of course, Misato's response to the answering machine would have set me straight.

Kaworu was able to sync. effortlessly with eva 02 because they were both made of Adam... yet Rei (who was made out of Lillith and Yui) takes 6 months to sync. with Eva 01

Yeah, but Rei didn't know that she was part Angel until the end. Kaworu knew all along.

[dwchang]

When Shinji blatantly rejects the false reality by saying "this is one of the possible realities?"

"This is one possible reality" does NOT equal "I reject this possible reality"

If you say so dude. If you watch the TV series and the movie, it's pretty obvious that he's rejecting Instrumentality and choosing to live his own life with the knowledge that he is a "somebody." It would be pretty pointless if he accepted a reality without AT fields and formed his own perfect, yet false reality. That would defeat the point of Evangelion IMO, but think what you like.

Actually, the line was "apparently lacks emotion," and apparently, she really doesn't lack emotion in the series. This and a dozen other things that don't make sense.

You're missing the point. I do agree that she has emotions, but the quote is saying she "appears" to not have any (and later reveals she does). My point was that you reject something, by using that when in fact it's an accurate description.

As for these things that don't make sense...name them. I think the movie, the TV series and the book all coincide with each other. I think I've demonstrated that in this thread and I think the responses (as well as other people thinking similar all over the place)seem to coincide with my conclusions.

[dwchang]

btw, with all ur experience with eva, and ur appreciated posting, i don't remember where u stood on the 'who shot kaji' argument.

I *finally* have an official answer to this question. This is from this site that Metro posted in another thread.

"Q) Who killed Ryhoji Kaji?

A) A lot of people put the blame on Misato. This is entirely false. In the TV series Film Books Anno says that Kaji was killed by "a third party working either for SEELE or for NERV's Intelligence Division." Anno didn't just say "NERV", but rather "NERV's Intelligence Division". While this is still unclear, it eliminates Misato since she does not work for the Intelligence Division.

Also, as an acquaintance had pointed out, the trauma of having murdered Kaji would certainly have been dealt with in Misato's Complementation in episode 25. But it is not."

Key thing here is that Anno, the director and creator said this. So yeah, that should put that question to rest.

I'd also like to add a few things:
1) Asuka at the end = Rei + Misato + Asuka
Basically it deals with the fact Asuka's eye color is blue and in the movie it is also blue. This is demonstrated with a card/screenshot.

2) Validity of the Red Cross Book:
"Q) Is the Red Cross Book published by Studio Gainax?

A) No, but it was approved by the staff of Evangelion. Including Hideaki Anno. Therefore it is reasonable to presume the RCB is official canon of Evangelion."

-If it was approved by the creator, I think it is reasonable to say that it tells the truth. Say what you want since he didn't write it, but we know how important Eva is to him and for him to approve something incorrect defeats the purpose of his entire show and that he cared at all.

3) Further evidence about the ending of Evangelion and the fact Shinji rejected Instrumentality and that we all have a choice:
"When given a choice at the end of Complement Project, if he wanted mankind to return to reality or to complete the project, Shinji decided that a life in reality, no matter how painful, is better than a fake happiness (Kaworu: "AT-Field will harm you and others again, are you sure?" Shinji: "That's fine.") "

Yui also says: "All living things have the ability to return to their original form... and the heart to go on living."

4) Why Shinji strangles Asuka at the end:
"That is why the first thing he did after coming to his senses was to place his hands around Asuka's neck. To feel the existence of an 'other'. To confirm (make sure of) rejection and denial."

Some of the hatemail that flashes during EoE (the reasons Anno made EoE a big "F-you")...here

One thing I'd like to say though is that I disagree with one thing on this page. They state that Episode 26 and the movies Endings are different.
"Q) Are the TV ending and Film ending the same conclusion to the saga?

A) In my view - No.

In the TV ending Shinji chose to stay with Complementation - it isn't even clear that Shinji had a choice at all. He is treated as little more than an example of the process of Complementation - which consisted if breaking down Shinji's link to reality. In the end, Shinji looks at the world of Complementation and smiling happily says "I understand! I can exist here!"

First off, the key thing is that it's their opinion. Everything else I have used in the previous thread as well as what they use to answer their questions (on the site) is from either the creator, the visual/script evidence from the series (can't argue with this) or other items Gainax created. He obviously states this is his opinion.

Secondly, I don't at all recall Shinji saying he accepted this reality. I do remember him saying he understood and that he realized his own self-worth..that others or him being an Eva Pilot don't define him, but I don't recall him saying anything about reality. At the same time, if he did state this, I think he was referring to "true reality" and not this false reality. This is obviously my own opinion, but it seems to coincide with A) the meaning of Evangelion and what Anno was saying (obviously big) and B) also coincides with the movie ending.

Although many of you have expressed that things are more clear for you, I hope that this helps even further in your understanding. This should add more "evidence" to the things I've said.

Hope it helps!

[AtomicWeezleman]

One thing I'd like to say though is that I disagree with one thing on this page. They state that Episode 26 and the movies Endings are different.
"Q) Are the TV ending and Film ending the same conclusion to the saga?

A) In my view - No.

In the TV ending Shinji chose to stay with Complementation - it isn't even clear that Shinji had a choice at all. He is treated as little more than an example of the process of Complementation - which consisted if breaking down Shinji's link to reality. In the end, Shinji looks at the world of Complementation and smiling happily says "I understand! I can exist here!"

Secondly, I don't at all recall Shinji saying he accepted this reality. I do remember him saying he understood and that he realized his own self-worth..that others or him being an Eva Pilot don't define him, but I don't recall him saying anything about reality. At the same time, if he did state this, I think he was referring to "true reality" and not this false reality. This is obviously my own opinion, but it seems to coincide with A) the meaning of Evangelion and what Anno was saying (obviously big) and B) also coincides with the movie ending.

Hmmm...... i myself find that althought both endings are different...... i dont believe shinji stayed with the complementation, after Misato says 'Now that you know yourself, you can take care of yourself', after this, we get the part where Shinji finds his selfworth, and a purpose to live...... having found this perpose, is there any need for the false reality? (Human complementation/instrumentation project)after he found his self



M-Now that you know yourself, you can take care of yourself
s- I hate myself
S- But I could love myself
s- Maybe my life could hold greater value
s- Thats right! I am no more or less than myself!
s- I am me!
s- I want to be me!
s- I want to continue existing in this world!
s- I am worth living here!

On anylysing this, yes, it doesnt say it means the real world, but if we look at what shinji says, things like 'i want to be me', well, the only 'Me' he knew, was the one in the real world, in a false reality, he wouldnt need such a need for value....... well, thats just my take on it anyways.......... i await your reply, as it should be returning tout sweet!

[dwchang]

Hmmm...... i myself find that althought both endings are different...... i dont believe shinji stayed with the complementation, after Misato says 'Now that you know yourself, you can take care of yourself', after this, we get the part where Shinji finds his selfworth, and a purpose to live...... having found this perpose, is there any need for the false reality? (Human complementation/instrumentation project)after he found his self

M-Now that you know yourself, you can take care of yourself
s- I hate myself
S- But I could love myself
s- Maybe my life could hold greater value
s- Thats right! I am no more or less than myself!
s- I am me!
s- I want to be me!
s- I want to continue existing in this world!
s- I am worth living here!

On anylysing this, yes, it doesnt say it means the real world, but if we look at what shinji says, things like 'i want to be me', well, the only 'Me' he knew, was the one in the real world, in a false reality, he wouldnt need such a need for value....... well, thats just my take on it anyways.......... i await your reply, as it should be returning tout sweet!

So what you're saying is you agree with me .

Basically, I agree and do hope those are straight from the show (quotes) because to me, there is no way for him to say "me" within Instrumentality. The point of Instrumentality was to break down individuality and our AT fields. There is no "me" in there. We are one giant pool of LCL and happy together IN it. There can be no "me." For him to say that he wants to "exist" would infer that he would want to live in reality as opposed to a false reality where he doesn't truly exist (hence the term...false).

So yeah, I do hope those are quotes since they would help close that issue as well.

Wow! Got a lot of those "controversial" questions finally answered with definite answers (given I didn't think Asuka was Rei and Misato or that Kaji was shot by Misato, but still nice to have proof) and further support of the main points. Whee!!!!!!!!