Hiei or Vegeta

[Arigatomina]

Heh, I only got into the 'destroying planets' because someone said that because Vegeta destroys planets, he would win regardless of anything else - as if the ability to destroy a planet alone made any other discussion pointless.

But arguing doesn't seem to make a difference here - so I'll give up with him. Explaining that you can't say just because they never do it doesn't mean they couldn't doesn't seem to be getting through. Explaining that by the same means of comparison, you can say many YYH characters are as theoritically able to do it as DBZ characters (namely the *main* dbz character, Goku) didn't even make a dent. Explaining that planet destruction is meaningless in close combat since both characters would die at that range might help, but I really doubt it at this point. I'm arguing to a wall.

But you're right. Destroying a planet would be mass suicide in YYH, so it's a moot point. It *is* because the three worlds would go and everyone on them unless a few people with space suits managed to escape - space is separate, so they *might* find a planet somewhere in the YYH universe to survive on - doubtful, but maybe. The only thing in 'space' in YYH is the Mekai (group of demons who were banished from earth by the reikai - see the longer movie for details) and I doubt they are really floating around so much as being trapped in some sort of distant bubble (or a planet somewhere). No one in YYH can breathe in space, so if the earth goes, the anime goes.

Still, I never said destroying planets was even important. I don't think the fact that Vegeta could destroy a planet eliminates anything else. Heck, that's like saying Vegeta would win even if he were asleep when Hiei attacked just because he has the power to destroy a planet. Or that he would win if both his hands were tied behind his back just because he has the power to destroy a planet. The reason I started arguing with this 'planet' business is because he said that it made anything else meaningless. And there's no way I'd agree to that.

It's like saying people breathe oxygen, so any discussion of a human going underwater is meaningless because it isn't an oxygen-rich environment - regardless of anything else. Forget cases in which people can get around that weakness (scuba gear, holding their breath) - they breathe oxygen, so they can't go under water. That's exactly what I get from the statement that makes me *have* to argue with it. That one statement takes every bit of the debate and tries to throw it aside based on one little fact. And I don't think that fact outrules anything at all in this case.

[Bote]

I'm arguing to a wall.

....... That is mean.

You're giving your's for/against and I'm giving mine. What's the problem there? I might not get something you say, so does that make me deductively slow? Does the fact that you don't get most of my sayings make you a "wall"? I thought not. Maybe we don't think alike.

The reason I started arguing with this 'planet' business is because he said that it made anything else meaningless

Not anything else in general, but anything Hiei can do. I could have said that Vegeta has a more powerful attack (Final Flash), but I picked that as to show which level of strenght Vegeta has.

Not one anime universe can be compared to DBZ's guys. Vegeta blows away planets and makes devastating attacks that are equal to the strenght of 1 000 000 regular people(according to Toriyama's power levels). No way any other anime character could beat him. I doubt that Hiei would even beat up Tien or Krillin, let alone Vegeta,

I don't think this can be more clearer. Devastating attacks and blowing away planets was just said as an example.

Explaining that planet destruction is meaningless in close combat since

lol I completely forgot about Vegeta's speed. He's much faster than Hiei. Maybe not as skilled with moves as Hiei, but faster. And strenght...pointless to say.

[Daio Kaji]

Those are the formulas of reasonable deductions. If I put our statements in some of the 4 figures none of them is compatible . Both of us are defending our favourite characters (I presume Hiei is yours), so we don't have any Terminus maior to have a final conclusion. It's just who you like more.

i don't think Ari is defending his favorite character
favorites plays no role in terms of logic unless you're not using any kind of deductive reasoning

she's simply stating the facts and any solid comparisons relating to those facts

Explaining that planet destruction is meaningless in close combat since

lol I completely forgot about Vegeta's speed. He's much faster than Hiei. Maybe not as skilled with moves as Hiei, but faster. And strenght...pointless to say.

sorry, the speed argument has been done, vegeta lost, read back a few pages, Ari gives a good breakdown using beautiful logic on Hiei owns Vegeta
but i'll give you the Strength, that's one thing that i don't remember anyone in this thread putting in Hiei favor, brute strength seems to be a plus for vegeta, possibly his only plus.. possibly, not definately

destroying planets means something that is compariable

i think we all need to realize that even IF planet destroying was a good argument, it's still not that simple, when planets were destroyed in dbz (don't know if any are destroyed in YYH) they were not all the same, in fact, the bulk of the destroed planets were small, planet sizes vary and comparing fighting levels with destroying planets becomes pointless because different planets are usually being referenced to

yes, Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta and planet Namek, but you have to compare the size/density of that planet to whatever planet you're talking about for the vs character
sidenote: frieza's family was in the habit of assigning planets to be destroyed, so you have to add those innumerous planets to his list, but again, we don't know the size of those planets, they could all have been the size of Pluto for all we know

so besides the planet mass differences, the other element you have to take into consideration is the creator of the anime, not in terms of preference to the end of this vs fight, but in terms of how much power they, the creators think or feel is necessary to destroy a planet, specifically, planet Earth

we pretty much can almost deduce an exact dbz-universe style power level to measure the amount of power needed to destroy planet earth if we can find all the scouter readings, but this would only be Toriyama's opinion on what it takes to destroy planet Earth
Togashi (YYH's creator) on the other hand most likely has a different opinion on the strength needed to destroy Earth, seeing as how dbz has been deemed so unreal, then the YYH universe would probably need more power to destroy Earth, seeing as how Togashi probably has a more realistic view Earth's ability to be destroyed

[Bote]

Those are the formulas of reasonable deductions. If I put our statements in some of the 4 figures none of them is compatible . Both of us are defending our favourite characters (I presume Hiei is yours), so we don't have any Terminus maior to have a final conclusion. It's just who you like more.

i don't think Ari is defending his favorite character
favorites plays no role in terms of logic unless you're not using any kind of deductive reasoning

Of DBZ and YYH - the two characters I like most are Hiei and Vegeta

But that is not the same as reasonable deduction is explained in theory.

so besides the planet mass differences, the other element you have to take into consideration is the creator of the anime, not in terms of preference to the end of this vs fight, but in terms of how much power they, the creators think or feel is necessary to destroy a planet, specifically, planet Earth

I'm mailing Toriyama right away. You mail Togashi. lol

speed

Vegeta doesn't teleport. So we don't see him dissapear. See as in we don't see him turn to particles like Goju. When he fought Imperfect Cell in his Dai ni dankai form he showed up beyond Cell's back several times. He moved very fast. Cell didn't even have a chance to punch him and didn't even see him go back. I doubt Cell has eye problems .

As for Hiei...he does dissappear more often than Vegeta that's true. Toriyama himself said that he was gonna put back the reasonable way the fights look, as in things were getting out of control since by the end of DB a lot of characters had the ability to dissapear (Tien,Goku,Piccolo even Krillin but that partial way). If you remember the old DB, on the last tournament there were almost more empty arena fighting scenes than fights that can be seen. None of us liked that I presume. So, for dissappearing, blame Toriyama.

[Arigatomina]

Of DBZ and YYH - the two characters I like most are Hiei and Vegeta

But that is not the same as reasonable deduction is explained in theory.

I said they were my favorites - emphasis on the *s* - meaning from the two anime, those are the two characters I know most about. Never did I say I liked one of them more than the other. In fact, if you separated them from their respective anime, I wouldn't be able to say who I liked better. In DBZ, Vegeta is my favorite. In YYH, Hiei is my favorite. As characters they aren't rivaling each other for the position of my favorite - my favorite character (separated from an anime, meaning just the character in and of himself) is Kurama. That has nothing to do with this argument.

I chose to defend Hiei, not because I like him better than Vegeta, but because all of the talk up till that point was in Vegeta's favor. I took the side of the person who wasn't being represented because I think they both deserve someone to argue their strengths and weaknesses. That's not favoritism, it's taking the unargued side of a debate regardless of the fact that I like them both.

Vegeta doesn't teleport. So we don't see him dissapear. See as in we don't see him turn to particles like Goju. When he fought Imperfect Cell in his Dai ni dankai form he showed up beyond Cell's back several times. He moved very fast. Cell didn't even have a chance to punch him and didn't even see him go back. I doubt Cell has eye problems .

That's what I meant. ^_^ I haven't watched that arc in a while, so I didn't remember. But if he showed up somewhere, that means he moved so fast the camera couldn't follow - which is exactly what Hiei does when he 'disappears' in his fight with Sensui and then appears in front of him. The difference? Sensui was looking around for a good minute before Hiei appeared, meaning not only was he fast - he could sustain that speed (stamina/endurance/aka a physical strength).

And since both Vegeta and Hiei do the 'disappear' and reappear somewhere else, we can use that anime 'tradition' to compare the two. Disappearing like that is a sign of speed (in anime - and now we know it's true for both anime). Since they both do it, the remaining question is who does it more, or better. And as you say -

As for Hiei...he does dissappear more often than Vegeta that's true.

So there's no debate over speed - he disappears more often (your testimony) and he disappears for longer (my testimony from the Sensui saga - which you may not have seen, I don't know).

As for 'realism' we don't need to worry *too* much about that when it comes to speed. Most any anime you name uses the 'disappear because the eye (camera) can't follow' trick to show how fast a person is going. Heck, even Sailormoon does it with its fast characters. Whether DBZ is inherently less 'real' than YYH doesn't matter here - most anime show speed the same way, so we can compare the two regardless of how unrealistic dbz may be when it comes to other things.

[And yes, I do consider myself a wall when I argue with you. ^_^;; Neither of us gives, we keep repeating the same things without bending - that is an argument between two immovable positions, in which case 'agree to disagree' usually is the only outcome.]

[)v(ajin Koji]

Can Hiei breathe in space? If not then Vegeta COULD win by destroying the planet because he can breathe in space (as seen when he, accompanied by Nappa) destroyed the planet with the insect people on it. He blew it up by standing on his space pod-in space.

Woo.

[Bote]

[And yes, I do consider myself a wall when I argue with you. ^_^;; Neither of us gives, we keep repeating the same things without bending - that is an argument between two immovable positions, in which case 'agree to disagree' usually is the only outcome.]

But a sexay wall *AIM kissy*

Can Hiei breathe in space? If not then Vegeta COULD win by destroying the planet because he can breathe in space (as seen when he, accompanied by Nappa) destroyed the planet with the insect people on it. He blew it up by standing on his space pod-in space.

That would be the badass Vegeta before meeting Bulma. That was a strange part, now that you mention it. Goku is a saiyan to, but he had to wear that space suit when repairing the ship. Peh...DBZ has a lot of errors. I know the badass Vegeta would use it if he had a chance.

[Arigatomina]

Can Hiei breathe in space? If not then Vegeta COULD win by destroying the planet because he can breathe in space (as seen when he, accompanied by Nappa) destroyed the planet with the insect people on it. He blew it up by standing on his space pod-in space.

Woo.

Yeah, dbz does that - but in the Brolly movie Vegeta couldn't breathe in space, and once he turns 'good' he never can breathe in space again. Maybe there was an air pocket surrounding the pod he was standing on. o.O

As for Hiei - I don't *think* he can, but it's speculation. No one really knows where the Mekai is. All we know is that a group of insurrectionists (demons) were cast off the earth and into a realm of space far enough away that they thought they'd never make it back. But in the movie, a few of those demons *do* come back to earth - and there's no sign of a spaceship or any sort of special skills that would have helped them get there (unless they can teleport - but if that were the case, Enma would *never* have thought banishing them would do the trick). The main guy was pretty darn strong, but no stronger than Sensui - an S class if that. That movie takes place before the Makai arc, so he was probably only an A class demon. Hiei makes it to S. If one demon can move from some distant part of space to the earth without a spaceship, then there's no reason *any* demon couldn't do it, at least one with an A level youki to shield him.

Look at it this way - when Hiei surrounds himself with fire there is no oxygen. He thrives off of it, but he is entirely without oxygen when he's aflame. The only problem he'd (theoretically) have in space would be the pressure trying to implode him since we know he fights while wrapped in a non-oxygen environment (surrounded by and actually emitting flames). And youki should be able to counter the pressure in space - that *is* how Brolly was able to survive space in the dbz movie (he surrounded himself with his energy).

So...maybe Hiei could survive in space, at least as long as he can survive when he's surrounded in flames (usually 2 hrs max).

The real question is why Vegeta lost his ability (if he ever really had it) - when we know his energy increased through the series, and that was the only thing he'd need to have shielded him from the pressure (saiyans can fight underwater, so I'm sure he could hold his breath just fine).

[Bebop0083]

is this thread dead yet??

any ways heres my assumptions

regular Vegeta (including SSJ ) vs Hiei winner: Hiei
Majin Vegeta vs Hiei winner Majin Vegeta
Majin Vegeta vs Majin Hiei(Hiei's demon form) tie

[)v(ajin Koji]

Can Hiei breathe in space? If not then Vegeta COULD win by destroying the planet because he can breathe in space (as seen when he, accompanied by Nappa) destroyed the planet with the insect people on it. He blew it up by standing on his space pod-in space.

Woo.

Yeah, dbz does that - but in the Brolly movie Vegeta couldn't breathe in space, and once he turns 'good' he never can breathe in space again. Maybe there was an air pocket surrounding the pod he was standing on. o.O

As I see it it'd have to be genetic (to be able to survive the pressure of space) or an air pod. However, after that moment there's no real mention of if Vegeta can breathe in space. However, if it were genetic all Saiya-Jin would be able to do it-including Goku...UNLESS Vegeta could only do it because he was a higher born Saiya-Jin.

Although, he could have lost this abillity due to training in enormous gravity and Goku could have lost it from simply growning up on Earth.

MAYBE.

:¬ \