'concept' videos |:>

[SnhKnives]

its just a hobby

i think some people take it too seriously

just have fun at what you're doing

[Douggie]

Its certainly true that I can use my own sources and make my own sources, but hey - I'm an editor and not a director/cameraman/whatever! It's not my job to do so, I edit video material that has been filmed/drawn already. And yes, I do edit live-action videos that has been shot by other people (mostly my friend though), so why do I use anime as a source and not live-action?

1. I don't have to wait for footage (which always takes centuries) to be ready and therefore I can experiment with concept I have in my head.
2. Anime is very forgiving: you can match different anime, cut-out backgrounds, combine, etc. and it still looks good.
3. Anime is drawn economically, so there's consistancy in the clothes and the looks of characters.

Therefore I can easily manipulate anime source to my liking and create the story and mood that I would like it to have. I make a video, it's just not shot or drawn by me. You could argue that people who watch the AMV are already connected with the anime/characters/etc. and that might be true, but it's your job as an editor to tell the story the best you can and make people look at that instead of the character that they used to be - just like a lot of movies contain actors that have play varied roles before. (and that's the reason I use anime that hasn't been seen by many people so I can get away easily)

This all makes sense to me and therefore I ask the reverse: why NOT make concept videos? I have never understood fan videos, fan doujinshi, fanstories or anything fan related. Why wouldn't you want to make something that you have thought of yourself - isn't that more fun and more challenging to do? I make AMVs because I'm an (amateur/hobbyist) editor and want to tell/portray a story and not because I'm fan of that anime. Not because I think that particular song is the best ever. Not because I think that character is great or looks sexy. I choose my sources based on what I want to tell and that makes more sense to me.

But all in all, I don't think that this is what it's all about.

Short version: Koop doesn't find "artsy" videos appealing that don't have the "conventional" way of story telling like most videos do.

Fixed.

I have the feeling that your discussion is more about AMVs that has a way of story-telling that you're not "used to" or you just "don't get" and are too abstract to your liking instead of creating a video from a concept. I have the feeling that it's like the discussion of the difference in the storytelling of movies 2001: Space Odyssey and Godfather. (which are both great and just different, not better than each other, but the second being more appreciated by the masses)

and Greggus and CrackTheSky, thanks for mentioning my vid as an example!

[CrackTheSky]

No, it's perfectly fine to do that.. it's not like the definition of a classic AMV is some kind of holy grail that all editors should strive for. It's when people view theses concept videos as some kind of 'new path' for AMVs or saying that they give 'more substance' than AMVs is what irks me. It's just a different way of using the sources. It's not anymore a new path as what people already do with other mediums.. trust me, I can make some random floating things on screen, with a weird kind of flow/synch and give some vague little reference to some word... is that creativity? No. Creativity should have a focus, a clear focus, to be deemed something that is worthwhile. I can think of dozens and dozens of ways to use footage in a way it has never been done in an AMV, as most can, but that doesn't mean it's creative unless it's actually cohesive and makes a point.

Alright, I can agree with most of that. I still think that the fact that these editors are trying different ways of presenting their footage and concepts is worth something, even if the result is not the most appealing to everyone. I can appreciate niche stuff, and I like that they're doing something different in the way they present their videos, by making their concept the most prominent aspect of the videos.

...But I do have to say, that since this whole idea has been raised, and I've gone and watched the videos in question...I do have to agree that they're mostly just eye candy. I could probably even call them pretentious.

But I still like them. Maybe I just like eye candy from time to time. I dunno. I don't think there needs to be an emotional connection to the video for it to be considered 'good', unless that's what the video is setting out to do in the first place. And I don't know that either Vertigo or Silencio was aiming to do that. If they were, then yeah, they failed in that respect. But if they weren't necessarily going for any sort of emotional pull, then I don't think they should be penalized for failing to provide one.

[CrackTheSky]

One more final thought on the subject, and Silencio in particular (I keep thinking about this topic, and coming up with more things to say about it). Because we have no real context through which we can view the video, as the video description is too vague and the video itself has no real structure, we have to create a context ourselves by which we can define it. I actually never thought of Silencio as a 'concept' video until this whole thread was started, and even now I don't really see any concept in it, at all. I never did. I always only ever saw it as an exercise in effects work (and by far the most technically competent video I've ever seen), and I think the reason I like it so much is because it succeeds at presenting some of the most gorgeous effect work I've ever seen in an AMV (in my opinion).

I think that's where the line gets drawn and you find yourself on one side or the other. If you choose to look at the video as some kind of conceptual work that focuses on a vague idea that is inaccessible to the general audience (even perhaps everyone but the editor himself), then I think you're not going to get as much out of it, because you choose to view the video as something you can't connect with, because in that way you're actively TRYING to connect with it.

As I always saw it as a purely effects-focused video, I never tried to make any conceptual connection with it; instead I just sat back and enjoyed it, the same way I would Bleach Technique Beat or a M@D.

If the editor had some sort of concept in mind while he was editing the video, then obviously it's been more or less lost on the general audience. But that's not for us to judge, as we did not make the video and have next to nothing to go by in terms of defining what the AMV itself is all about.

So...yeah, I'm going to bed now.

[downwithpants]

"amv": something close enough to what you wrote. in the most general terms, it is anime accompanied by music, edited in a manner to produce an aesthetic appeal. when we look at specific trends in amv creation, there are predominant standards of aesthetics. the opinion scoring system can be said to have established a standard of aesthetics at this site. kalium's AMV Theory Primer elaborates more standards, although videos like the ones you posted stray from these.

to offer a comparison, music in the most general terms is sound (or lack thereof) created to produce aesthetic appeal. there are several standards of aesthetics, western has metric organization and chord progression, near eastern has improvisation, indian has polymeter. and individual music genres have their own standards. music foreign to a listener's familiar aesthetics may sound strange. perhaps she will come to like it or not.

videos like the ones you posted are AMVs, but perhaps aim for a different set of aesthetics than that we are used to. MADs could be under yet another set of aesthetics.


do i like these kinds of videos? yes, but perhaps (okay i should stop using that word) for different purposes than "traditional" AMVs. with "traditional" AMVs i like to just sit in front of the monitor or screen, watch, and look at certain details of the video. with "conceptual" AMVs, i may fancy them when i'm in a certain mood, or it just sticks in my head, maybe not paying close attention to the details.

going back to the music analogy, i think near eastern music is really cool in movie scores, but i wouldn't play it in the car with friends. i.e. function plays a large role in aesthetics.


and i thought silencio was mostly music-driven, not a concept detached from its vessel of music and anime.

[Sephiroth]

I find the blatant ignorance of you not surprising but rather sad. Still don't get AMVs after all this time and you wonder about it still to this day. Trying to define amvs differently then they actually are will give you a major headache and just shows how little you really do know.

You want an answer about the art. I'll answer the way an artist does in a very none defined fashon

You never lived in the streets though you wish you had
Not enough talent to play a guitar
You failed as an artist 'cause you lacked in the confidence
Now you're a critic and you're at the top
(The top of what)
You don't believe what you write
You're and imposter you don't, don't, don't believe what you write
You can't get used to the fact that you ain't a kid
You like to think that you speak for them all
You'd cut off your nose if you thought it would make you hip
It drives you crazy you can't be a star (Oh ain't that tough)
You don't believe what you write
(You're an imposter) you don't believe what you write
(You're an imposter) you don't believe what you write
(You're an imposter) you don't, don't, don't believe what you write
You take the credit while others do all the work
You like to think you discovered them first
But we all know you moved in after it was safe
That way you know you could never get hurt
(You like to play god!!)
(Repeat chorus)
You're just a critic, we know why you drink so much
Jealousy slowly consuming your gut
The streets that you never knew are just where they've always been
Your head is firmly lodged way up your butt (where it belongs)

Faceless surgeons armed with razors
Cut out our imagination
It's a strange thing
Deadly reason
Razors cut with such precision
Probing deep without detection
Razors never lie

Short version: Koop doesn't find 'concept' videos appealing. How about you?

[jasper-isis]

I like 'em. I don't particularly view them as different from any other AMVs.

Sometimes an AMV starts with the music. Sometimes it starts with the video. Sometimes, you mull over an anime while listening to a certain piece of music and think, "Hey, I can do something with that."

And sometimes, you get an idea and think, "I wonder what it'd be like if I tried to put it in an audiovisual medium."

It's not about originality for the sake of originality. It's not about excessive effects. It's the same as making any other AMV, starting with one thing that gets you motivated and adding supporting elements from there. The only difference is that it emphasizes something other than the video, the music, or the connection between the two.

Or heck, who knows, the editor may be trying to emphasize any or all of them. Our intentions never get fully translated to the screen anyway - and even if they do, who knows what they'll sound like inside other people's heads.

It goes without saying that people don't all like the same things. If your video (of any type) doesn't seem to jive well with the audience, there isn't much you can do besides say "oh well," think about how you might improve, and move on.

[Otohiko]

I stayed out of this thread because it'd inevitably make me side with a 'concept' take on this, which I don't neccesarily partake in. That is, I like/dislike conceptual linearity as much as I like/dislike technological-orientedness. In all truth I probably don't care about either all that much. Both can be good, both can be bad.

I'm far more interested in building up visual/conceptual structure, which IS conceptual videography, but I don't think it's neccesarily in the same way as it has been done by the two (real or perceived) sides here. In all our polarization, I think it's rapidly becoming a black-and-white issue and we get equally-pretentious batches of the "technocrats" and "conceptualists".

Honestly, whichever side you're coming from, the point is that you forget it and make a GOOD VIDEO. A good video is NECCESARILY a structured video. Even if it's chaos, it's still intentional chaos.

There are many ways to achieve a structure in a video. You have a whole pallette of things. It's up to you to choose them and put them together. You do that by taking account your own interests, abilities, goals and perhaps audiences. There's nothing else to it.

[Koopiskeva]

Short version: Koop doesn't find "artsy" videos appealing that don't have a clear point or focus.

Fixed.

No, it's perfectly fine to do that.. it's not like the definition of a classic AMV is some kind of holy grail that all editors should strive for. It's when people view theses concept videos as some kind of 'new path' for AMVs or saying that they give 'more substance' than AMVs is what irks me. It's just a different way of using the sources. It's not anymore a new path as what people already do with other mediums.. trust me, I can make some random floating things on screen, with a weird kind of flow/synch and give some vague little reference to some word... is that creativity? No. Creativity should have a focus, a clear focus, to be deemed something that is worthwhile. I can think of dozens and dozens of ways to use footage in a way it has never been done in an AMV, as most can, but that doesn't mean it's creative unless it's actually cohesive and makes a point.

I don't really have anything else to say...

PS. I never said that these videos weren't AMVs.. I just don't get the appeal.

[outlawed]

Disclaimer: I have not viewed the specific videos linked by the OP so I will keep my comments more generic about the issue.

I have never been a fan of AMVs which attempt to make their own re-telling or spin their own yarn. Oftentimes they have a completely opposite message than the source they are using footage from. This often begs the question? Why use this footage? Is it because you failed to consider it already has specific meanings, you failed to properly convey your thoughts, you failed to consider that you are altering the creative intentions of the orginal anime creators, or because the video is in itself esoteric. This is not to say I think this type of video is inherently bad and should not be made. But bad is often the result when poorly executed in delivery. Note that I do not say creation. We must recall the most important of terms when it comes to personal art. Esoteric. A problem does arise when the creator behind a work is unable to realize this is what they have made. Recall that many famous filmakers, painters, musicians, etc who are historically important and well respected today were often not so in their day.

I consider it a great stretch of imagination at this point to think of AMV creators as artists. The interpretation of art greatly changes over time so maybe one day others would think differently.

One thing I am going to attempt to infer from within this thread is the following:
There are people who are blindingly over-crediting esoteric AMVs simply because their creators tried to be different. Any artist who has made personal and/or esoteric works would be the first to tell you that you are not expected to understand their work because of its highly personal nature/experience. To laud praise for concept when you do not understand something is folly and I hope people aren't doing that. Feel free to encourage the creative personality if anything but that's about where I would stop.

I don't agree with attempting to labels these videos with some tagline such as "concept videos." I'm not going to bother commenting on that opinion of mine further. The term has obviously started to become commonplace already. The only thing I would promote though is that new creators realize your videos are supposed to have a concept. The difference between those recognized as good and bad amv creators generally has more to do with concept and less with editing. I have always felt concept is king. Of course, the ability to convey your concept is a whole other story...

As the only 2 time winner of Acen's "Best Original Concept" award (which no longer exists) I am qualified to state my expert opinions above =p