I just have to know...

[Leader Desslock]

All,

Most likely, none of you know me. I am not an AMV creator. I just joined this board to ask one question. This is the only thread in which I am likely to participate, and once this question is answered and this discussion has run its course, you'll probably never hear from me again.

If any of you happen to post over at AnimeNation, you'll probably recognize my name, but other than that, I don't really have much contact with the anime fanbase as a whole. I've been known to troll now and again, but this is actually a sincere question and not an attempt to troll your whole forum. I have no illusions about how poorly this question is apt to be received by your forum membership, but my intent is genuine discussion.

That said, I know nothing of your board. I don't know how tolerant your moderation staff is of flaming and so forth. All I can say is that if you feel inspired to post something that will get this thread locked or deleted, please don't. Flame me in PMs if you wish. Knock yourself dead. Roast me alive over at AN. I assure you, they won't stop you (the burden of having been a troll), and I can take it. Just don't post anything that's going to get this thread locked or deleted until I get the answer I'm seeking.

What is that question, you ask? Well, before I ask, a moment's perspective is in order.

I've been on the internet a long time (since before many of you were born). I've met a lot of people. I've met a lot of artists, writers, animators, short film producers, screenplay authors, etc. I'm a writer myself. I've taught writing and used to publish a magazine. There are several professional writers, artists and musicians in my family and in my immediate circle of friends. I know several artists over at AN quite well.

With these folks I've met and known over the years, I've put my stuff out there for them to review, and likewise they've given me their stuff to review. Some of those reviews have been good, some have been bad. I take 'em all in stride (as do the other artists I know). Some people will always like your stuff even when it's not your best, and some people will never like something you poured your heart and soul into, no matter how many awards you got for it. That's just how it is. The moment you put your work out there, the world is going to judge it. As an artist, you take their feedback (good, bad & ugly), use it to improve where you can, and you move on.

We get a large number of artists over an AN (we have a Fan Art and Fiction subforum dedicated to them), and by and large, they generally take feedback well. Nobody likes being told "you need to fix this chapter" or "the proportions on that character are odd", but... without that feedback, you'd never improve as an artist, right? So you take what they've said, see if there's some merit in it (there usually is), and your hopefully learn from your mistakes. Do better next time. Turn the page. We all go through it, it sucks sometimes, but since it's a necessary part of getting better as an artist, we do it.

But. (now we're getting to my question)

There is one group of artists that (as a group, from what I've seen on AN) has... I don't even know how to word it. They seem singularly unable to take even the tiniest bit of critical feedback. And that is the tiny group of artists posting on AN that produces AMVs.

YES, I KNOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE. YES, THERE ARE AMV CREATORS THAT TAKE CRITICAL FEEDBACK IN THE SPIRIT IN WHICH IT'S INTENDED. I AM NOT WHITEWASHING THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY BECAUSE OF A SUBSET OF INDIVIDUALS. DON'T EVEN BOTHER TAKING THAT TACK WITH ME.

What I'm saying is that I can criticize most folks' fanfiction just fine on a variety of sites. I can criticize fan art just fine on a number of sites. But the moment I suggest that someone's AMV is anything less than the acme of creative expression, that person invariably gets bent completely out of shape and starts to rationalize why I just don't "get" the merits of their work.

A recent incident on AN underscored this, which is what prompted me to start this thread over here. I'd have discussed this in his thread over at AN, except he deleted the thread. So I made a comment on his actual youtube video, which he ALSO deleted. So I'm left to ponder and discuss this over at what I assume is the Mecca of AMV creators.

Before you even ask, I'm not going to identify the user or his AMV. The thread was deleted on AN. I've checked that it's not in the archive. So I'm not trolling that individual, and I'll toss no bones out by which he can be tracked down. If he wishes to come forward, that's his concern.

Here's the way it played out (and please believe me when I say that this incident is fairly representative of AMV creators' reactions on AN over the years).

- USER posted a thread linking to AMV, requesting feedback.

- I posted a response asking if he wanted "1) honest feedback, or 2) mere praise", suggesting that past experiences showed that most AMV creators' reactions indicated they wanted #2, even when they asked for #1.

- USER indicated that yes, he truly wanted Honest Feedback.

- I obliged. The points I remember making (thread was deleted, so I can't verify) were:

1. The AMV contained footage containing credits and mismatched subtitles, which I discouraged (I view the use of "dirty" clips as an absolute beginner mistake)
2. The AMV had no narrative continuity. It was a bunch of quick cuts with background music. It was like a quick slide show with music. The cuts jumped in time.
3. The AMV didn't appear to be expressing anything beyond "aren't these scenes cool? I like this song."

My overall review was that I'd definitely seen worse, but the AMV was completely forgettable. The rating I think I gave it was "eh."


Could I have been a lot more harsh? Sure. But these were the basic "if I had to recommend fixing something in your next attempt, these are the areas I'd work on" suggestions. They were fair suggestions, too.

The response was that the thread was deleted by the USER (I verified this). So I posted on the user's youtube site "next time, either ask for praise or accept the honest feedback for which you've asked." Nothing more. I didn't criticize the work again (no point). I left it at that, signed my name, and was done with it.

Amazingly, I did get a response from the user. I'll walk through the highlights, keeping them anonymous:

"I apologize for deleting my thread and I really do appreciate your feedback on my amv because out of all of the amv's I put on here you were the first person to actually give me feedback when I asked for it."

...so that's a good thing, right? The problem would be... what, exactly?

"I really wanted to delete the thread before you posted again but when you did my honest reaction was oh ****! I guess I never really wanted any feedback, I just put that because I never really expect anyone to actually give me feedback. I really respected that you actually gave me feedback and that is not the reason why I deleted the post."

...Huh? So... the reason I joined your forum, created a thread, then asked for feedback is that I didn't want any. In fact, the entire reason I posted my creative work online, publicly available, is so that nobody would see it or comment on it in any way. Heaven forbid! So when you asked if I wanted feedback (warning me that most AMV creators don't really want it) and I confirmed that I did, this was really my way of begging you not to comment on my work in any way.

"To be fair though and this is no disrespect to you everyone judges amv's differently and I can tell that you haven't seen much of show name deleted which makes it hard to believe why anyone would want to watch an amv of a show they haven't seen."

Bull excrement. This is sad rationalization. I saw an absolutely superlative AMV combining Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and Mulan's "Be A Man" before I'd ever seen or knew anything about TTGL. It's what made me want to see the show, and I loved it. I've done the same with AMVs from other shows I haven't seen (Death Note, for one). Seeing the show from which the clips are taken is not a prerequisite for enjoying an AMV from that show, or at least, if the AMV is done right, it shouldn't be. An AMV should stand on its own as a creative work (just as fanart or fanfiction should do).

"But in the end I asked and I recieved and should have acted faster on what I really wanted but I hope we can put this behind us and next time I would appreciate if you commented to me on here and not on my youtube account... I am going to delete the comment off of youtube and no disrespect to you but I would rather keep it to this forum."

Translation: I'm scared that other people might tell me that they agree with your opinion.


SO NOW MY QUESTION:

What the **** is it with so many (in my person experience) AMV creators that: a) compels them to post their work publicly, b) compels them to ask for critical feedback, then c) causes them to freak the hell out when you find the tiniest fault with it?!

If they're so think-skinned that they wither under the tiniest shred of critical scrutiny, why are they bothering to post their work in the first place, much less asking for honest feedback? Wouldn't they be happier keeping their works to themselves? Or failing that, why would they ASK for feedback, knowing they don't want any?

Are there similarly thin-skinned artists and writers posting on the web? Absolutely. But for every one of them, I swear I've met a dozen or more AMV creators who were even more touchy.

Why is this? What is it about the AMV community that makes them proportionately less able to accept feedback, but still compelled to seek it? Am I the only one who's ever noticed or commented on this? Is it just a quirk of the AMV creators who've joined AN? What is it?


Another anecdote from AN, this one from years back: We had a member (forgotten the name) that similarly asked for feedback. We gave it to him, point for point. He took it, made another AMV, posted it. We told him he hadn't fixed the things we specifically mentioned, he insisted he HAD. So we posted screen shots to SHOW him (with time markers and everything) that no, he hadn't fixed anything. Guy flipped out and left the forums. His reaction is absolutely typical of AMV creators joining and posting on AN, to the point where we often cite his specific example before accommodating an AMV creator's request for feedback these days. But it doesn't help; they still react badly.

Don't you guys critique each others' works? Isn't that one purpose of this forum? To critique each other and help each other improve?


Whatever insight you folks would like to shed on this for me would be greatly appreciated, 'cause I just can't seem to wrap my head around the behaviours I've seen.

[BasharOfTheAges]

You do realize you're posting this question on a website that has been vilified as a haven for mean-spirited, elitist snobs because, unlike youtube, those of us dedicated to the hobby enough to post here actually hold feedback and critique in the highest regard.

You need to take a look at where you are. This isn't youtube. Fuck, this is a forum that wordfiltered youtube for years to shout from the tops of our lungs just how not youtube we were. This is a place where feedback like you claim to have given would be seen as uncharacteristically nice. You are painting with way to broad a brush.

Any appearance of a lack of harsh critique you might see in our announcement forums is probably due to the fact that most of best stuff in the hobby is announced here and people who produce utter shit are often too intimidated to even ask for feedback.

It's nice to hear that our reputation isn't as widespread as once thought, but your post shows an almost hilarious level of ignorance of the situation. This is all, quite literally, preaching to the choir.

[CodeZTM]

The attitude you describe has to do more with an individual person's attitude/maturity, and not the hobby in an entirety.

[Fall_Child42]

That sure is a whole lot of words to ask

"Why do some people take criticism poorly?"

[macchinainterna]

[ReggieSmalls]

[Prodigi]

What I'm saying is that I can criticize most folks' fanfiction just fine on a variety of sites. I can criticize fan art just fine on a number of sites. But the moment I suggest that someone's AMV is anything less than the acme of creative expression, that person invariably gets bent completely out of shape and starts to rationalize why I just don't "get" the merits of their work.

That's because AMV editors put hours and hours into AMVs, from the time consuming ripping and prepping, to the actual syncing of clips. Fan-fiction writers for the most part seem to write romanticized trash and slash fic that requires no imagination or ability.

...

You see what I did there? I took a small sample of my own experience with both editing and fan fiction writers and extrapolated it as a whole. Can you now see how what you've written could be interpreted in the same way by us? Yes, obviously you've had some bad experiences with editors not taking criticism. You know what you do then? Don't talk to them. If they're that high strung that they can't take the littlest bit of feedback then just leave them be and focus on the people who will.

A recent incident on AN underscored this, which is what prompted me to start this thread over here. I'd have discussed this in his thread over at AN, except he deleted the thread. So I made a comment on his actual youtube video, which he ALSO deleted. So I'm left to ponder and discuss this over at what I assume is the Mecca of AMV creators.

Before you even ask, I'm not going to identify the user or his AMV. The thread was deleted on AN. I've checked that it's not in the archive. So I'm not trolling that individual, and I'll toss no bones out by which he can be tracked down. If he wishes to come forward, that's his concern.

Okay, so you don't indicate them by name, but it still appears you're going out of your way to enforce your own opinion on someone else who clearly doesn't want to hear it. After they deleted the initial thread, unhappy with your feedback, you felt it necessary to follow onto their youtube channel and make similar comments there? I'm not saying they weren't being childish for not taking any criticism, but somehow you're the bigger person for then taking it up with them on their public youtube video, and then also creating a thread about it (anonymous or not) on the, as you put it, Mecca of AMV creators? Seems a little backwards to me.

but the AMV was completely forgettable. The rating I think I gave it was "eh."

Yes, I realise I'm taking this quote out of context and that you did make some valid points before it, I acknowledge that. However, following it with a comment like "eh" or stating that it was completely forgettable is hardly constructive feedback. If I were to say "well yes that shirt does look nice on you but your face just really ruins the whole thing" it would hardly be considered constructive. Your suggestions for fixes were fair, but your follow-up comments were completely unnecessary.

You started out sounding like a fairly intelligent person who actually had a legitimate question but the more I read the more I questioned this. Yes, I'm not denying some people in the hobby can't take criticism, but this is true of all hobbies and as I stated before you've taken a small sampling and extrapolated to a whole.

You write "I'm not trolling that individual" yet you then go and post private responses from them and then you try to systematically pick them apart while sound like over-opinionated swine. Anyone who uses the phrases "Heaven forbid!" and "Bull excrement" when responding to something someone else has said is generally not giving a fair and unbiased analysis of a situation.

Now if you read my response and think "well your own reply can be used against you because you've just done the exact same thing to me" well that's the point. I'm showing just how useless and uncessary your whole post was and how, in fact, you do seem to want some kind of visceral response from people because otherwise you wouldn't have written an essay and would have just asked a short well-worded question instead of pre-facing it with ass-covering and finger-pointing.

Good day sir.

[macchinainterna]

What I'm saying is that I can criticize most folks' fanfiction just fine on a variety of sites. I can criticize fan art just fine on a number of sites. But the moment I suggest that someone's AMV is anything less than the acme of creative expression, that person invariably gets bent completely out of shape and starts to rationalize why I just don't "get" the merits of their work.

That's because AMV editors put hours and hours into AMVs, from the time consuming ripping and prepping, to the actual syncing of clips. Fan-fiction writers for the most part seem to write romanticized trash and slash fic that requires no imagination or ability.

...

You see what I did there? I took a small sample of my own experience with both editing and fan fiction writers and extrapolated it as a whole. Can you now see how what you've written could be interpreted in the same way by us? Yes, obviously you've had some bad experiences with editors not taking criticism. You know what you do then? Don't talk to them. If they're that high strung that they can't take the littlest bit of feedback then just leave them be and focus on the people who will.

A recent incident on AN underscored this, which is what prompted me to start this thread over here. I'd have discussed this in his thread over at AN, except he deleted the thread. So I made a comment on his actual youtube video, which he ALSO deleted. So I'm left to ponder and discuss this over at what I assume is the Mecca of AMV creators.

Before you even ask, I'm not going to identify the user or his AMV. The thread was deleted on AN. I've checked that it's not in the archive. So I'm not trolling that individual, and I'll toss no bones out by which he can be tracked down. If he wishes to come forward, that's his concern.

Okay, so you don't indicate them by name, but it still appears you're going out of your way to enforce your own opinion on someone else who clearly doesn't want to hear it. After they deleted the initial thread, unhappy with your feedback, you felt it necessary to follow onto their youtube channel and make similar comments there? I'm not saying they weren't being childish for not taking any criticism, but somehow you're the bigger person for then taking it up with them on their public youtube video, and then also creating a thread about it (anonymous or not) on the, as you put it, Mecca of AMV creators? Seems a little backwards to me.

but the AMV was completely forgettable. The rating I think I gave it was "eh."

Yes, I realise I'm taking this quote out of context and that you did make some valid points before it, I acknowledge that. However, following it with a comment like "eh" or stating that it was completely forgettable is hardly constructive feedback. If I were to say "well yes that shirt does look nice on you but your face just really ruins the whole thing" it would hardly be considered constructive. Your suggestions for fixes were fair, but your follow-up comments were completely unnecessary.

You started out sounding like a fairly intelligent person who actually had a legitimate question but the more I read the more I questioned this. Yes, I'm not denying some people in the hobby can't take criticism, but this is true of all hobbies and as I stated before you've taken a small sampling and extrapolated to a whole.

You write "I'm not trolling that individual" yet you then go and post private responses from them and then you try to systematically pick them apart while sound like over-opinionated swine. Anyone who uses the phrases "Heaven forbid!" and "Bull excrement" when responding to something someone else has said is generally not giving a fair and unbiased analysis of a situation.

Now if you read my response and think "well your own reply can be used against you because you've just done the exact same thing to me" well that's the point. I'm showing just how useless and uncessary your whole post was and how, in fact, you do seem to want some kind of visceral response from people because otherwise you wouldn't have written an essay and would have just asked a short well-worded question instead of pre-facing it with ass-covering and finger-pointing.

Good day sir.

[Nessephanie]

Good day sir.

I SAID GOOD DAY!


also, what he said.

[ReggieSmalls]