AnimeMusicVideos.org TOCAG Assessment

[irriadin]

I love this thread; now someone else knows how I felt.

I know this is completely non-constructive. I'm just saying.

yea, but to be fair, a lot of us are just warning him of what you had to deal with. If you choose to start the project back up, I will help out.... but from what I gather, the high-level administration is getting in the way.

[trythil]

I love this thread; now someone else knows how I felt.

I know this is completely non-constructive. I'm just saying.

yea, but to be fair, a lot of us are just warning him of what you had to deal with. If you choose to start the project back up, I will help out.... but from what I gather, the high-level administration is getting in the way.

No, they've helped out. My interest just went elsewhere.

[AMVGuide]

Okay, I'm going to do something that I should have done right from the very beginning: I'm going to pick apart the responses.

But in the future, for the sake of organization, everyone please keep your responses Clear and Concise. Or if you feel you do need to type a bunch of stuff, make your statement short, then explain your statement afterwards. Reason being is that for every short sentence you type, my response will unravel into something 10 times larger. And if you don't want to drive me crazy, you'll do this. Clear and Concise is golden.

• For example:
  I don't think Game posts should be allowed. (This is the statement)
  
  I think that if blah and blah happened, then blah and blah might blah. And then blah would blah; and blah would blah.
  Then more blah, and blah... until blah blahed the blah and this turned into a paragraph. (This is the explanation)

(sorry... if I'm not having fun I just make my own... )



Anyways:

My first thought is that it's way too cluttered. From this I don't know how to go backward to other parts of the forum where there's discussion about other things going on.

ummm... there's a drop-down menu in the corner. I'm sorry if you can't see it in action since it's just an image, but it would drop down into something like the Quick Links at the bottom. It'll take you wherever you need to go, as organized as the bulk of the org is going to get into 5 categories (generally, more than 5 categories hurts peoples' heads... probably has something to do with the number of fingers on our hands... idk...). And besides, you wouldn't need to do that since the hottest discussion topics would be right in front of you already.

The point about clutter is entirely outweighed by functionality. Not just because the tag-cloud at the top serves as a way to jog the users memory for the type of posts they can make; and not just because it serves as a way of telling people about the naming scheme, hence preventing people from breaking the only rule this system would have-- but because there is no way to make any posting system less cluttered unless the system was entirely re-coded. And if that's the case, the org would lose all the old posts it has built up over the last 10 years. (Which reminds me: when was the last time the org made a backup? Does the org have a system in place for what happens if the site administrator passes away... or can't make payments to the webhost, which supposedly costs 'Thousands of Dollars' a month according to the site Q & A... or will the org just vanish from the face of the earth...? hmmm... that should give the admin something to put on their TODO list...) Anyways... all that history would be lost; unless some kind of migration system was created with really good error-detection and error-correction to accommodate the newly coded site. But even then, something's bound to break, especially since AMVers have a tendency to use funky non-standard ASCII characters like Japanese symbols and stuff like this: 休憩がありません

Notice how the system breaks on the new page? I did my research before coming up with this. I thought my list of 25 points why the org should do this would have been enough. Then again, I probably should have listed all the Disadvantages too, and explain how they mostly get nullified by all the benefits that I arrived at. Well... live and learn

Of course, let's imagine what would happen if the forums were re-coded: If it was done, the videos would likely be based on images, which is a detriment to the hobby since then all users would be putting their faith in a random thumbnail generator where the success or failure of a video is determined by chance; instead of the title/characteristics of the video which is determined by the user. And that's a much better indication of whether an AMV is going to be good or bad because it's the only thing that's actually generated by the human mind. The use of images is like short term gain, long term pain. The image peaks your interest momentarily, but what's inside looks just like everything else. User-generated thumbnails... okay... maybe... but then you're going to end up seeing image-whorers that just know how to put up a good facade. Coming up with a good title can't be faked.

All of this being nullified by the fact that the current homepage does nothing; but this does something (cluttered or not). I cannot stress enough the importance of the homepage. It's the only power the org actually has.

I like the idea of reposts, but the way it looks is too wordy. It'd be better if there was a different color topic icon thing for it rather than just "repost" injected into the title, as well as for the other categories like 'new', and 'review,' which I don't know if you added that last one in there randomly or something,

I see a glimmer of hope in this. Yes, I agree different icons/colors would be better. Yet, I disregarded it because it requires extra coding. With a little luck there may be a php plugin for that. Or separate columns for tags. I think that's what this design would ultimately evolve into anyway. (This is just a prototype after all). Either way, I'm very hung up on feasibility. If the limitation to the org is coding, the best solutions are the ones that require minimal/no coding. And that's another point I cannot stress enough. Think of it like taking chunks of the current site, and just moving them around. Because that's literally what happens when you add new links/buttons/page-redirects or moving around blocks of code. The org has more than enough stuff. It's just a matter of using it more effectively.

but if you're going to review an amv just post it under that amv's comment thread instead of making a new one, since that just drowns out everything else.

Surely posting feedback within threads should be encouraged. But, by limiting it to within the amv thread, it defeats the purpose of doing a review. Reviews are there to publicly showcase an AMV on a deeper level. It should be separate. It's how users separate the wheat from the chaff without even being aware that they are doing it in the first place. Because that's how you can tell where all the good AMVs and discussions are. And the beauty of it is it's all 100% user-driven. If something is innovative or interesting enough in an AMV to talk about, then it comes to the surface instead of being buried deep within the bowels of an AMV announcement thread. Not only do reviews put the fans on the same level as the editors, but it serves as a way to reinforce what the community considers to be best-practices in the land of AMV. If you don't have something like that, the hobby as a whole has no way to improve. Plus, it gives the fans something to do. Otherwise you end up with virtually no interaction... ie.) the current system. This happens because it's entirely editor-based. I mean, there's this gigantic entire other body of users the org doesn't even tap into called The Fans. But if the system is entirely controlled by The Editors... well... then we all know who loses out... The Fans. Actually scratch that. Everyone loses out. You can't have one without the other. And currently you either become a hybrid fan/editor or you go somewhere else.

Albiet, it may be useful for new announcers to declare whether they are open to have others start separate reviews on their AMV or not. And common courtesy would dictate reviewers to ask for permission in the announcement thread first. And if the answer is yes, the reviewer simply types up there stuff, posts the review, and posts a link in the original thread. In this way, everything stays connected, and everything that spawns from that AMV can be retraced back to the original via link references (or reference sources of inspiration... hmmm... that's a cool idea too...) anyway... and as an added bonus, your AMV won't die so fast if it spawns a review or reviews. (hmm.... then the reviewers can battle each other instead of the editor taking the brunt of everything themselves... amvers can have PR groups... banner-makers... description writers... eh... nvm... but AMVing is kinda cool since it's like a miniature movie-debut when you think about it, and that's what I like about the hobby... but again... nvm...)

Another issue I have with it is if new threads can be so easily created and say reposts became big, then amvs would easily flow onto the second page, whereas under the current system amvs have more feature-time.

Not a problem. Click page 2. That's what it's there for. Naww... but in all seriousness, if posts do get bumped off the front page-- and if users feel so inclined... they can make a separate thread in the AMV Announcements forum with all the other ones. Or better yet, bump the posts you think deserve more attention. See, the system I'm proposing wouldn't replace anything. All the same forums/subforums would exist the way they are. The homepage would simply serve as a way to get more people active. Give them a reason to use the org, and come back to it. And for most users, I think a posting system would be enough. It'd be like a playground for amvers. And kids generally take care of each other when everyone can see them, unlike the scuffles that happen on youtube. (I kind of like to see the AMV youtube community more like a conglomerate of gangs based on subscriptions to show each other where their loyalties reside). But with a system like this... because there is only one of it, it becomes whatever the community turns it into. And yes... in the beginning there will be fights like there always is... and people rage-quitting and coming back. But over time, it will develop a sense of maturity as the 8-year-olds grow up into people like us to teach the new 8-year olds a thing or two. So, if the community notices there are too many Reposts, start a Discussion about it. Or come up with a plan to ensure reposts don't get out of control. And if it does, someone --maybeevenyou-- will come along... slap em on the wrist and say: "Hey. Stop posting so many reposts, please. It's taking attention away from the newbies. But thanks for reminding me of that one AMV. I totally forgot about that one ))lol" Tackling these issues in the public eye not only would show that the hobby is alive and active, but it would help develop the minds of the younger generations. People would learn to communicate with each other better by not seeing themselves as the center of attention; always keeping in mind the overall perspective; to see how issues are tackled on semi-large scale. Plus, it'll get them reading, typing, and using their own minds again... unlike the chopped-off stranglement of thought-processes that occurs within tiny little character limits purveyed by the convenience of our own impatience.

One thing with this is that it facilitates more discussion for specific amvs since it's the first 'click,' essentially, into the site, which could counteract the last issue I mentioned, but only if people could easily make comments on them.

First click into the site? No no... with the proposed design, there's no need for that when you are already in the site. Although this does raise the importance of what people should click first. A splash screen might help, but I think v2.0 addresses this issue by putting the AMV Spotlight right on the front. It risks users missing the entire forum if they don't scroll down... but maybe I can come up with something in v3.0 or something... I mean, currently it's just Minimalism design, surrounded by lots of white space so new users know exactly where to click within 8 seconds when then get to the site. Makes it look pretty too like it's all lit up and stuff; but often when it comes to the success of a site, it has virtually nothing to do with how good it looks. Just take a look at reddit or 4chan. There's no real layout; it's all content. Which is especially vital for smartphone users. Often, a simple layout is better. It just get's you straight to the point. And that's kind of the whole purpose of the internet: Getting you where you want to go. Now look at the current homepage. Does it get a new user where they want to go? It doesn't matter how good the inside is if they never get there in the first place.

12- giving members the ability to just create whatever category they want will just make everything more chaotic

Chaotic or not, the org needs some life breathed into it. So even if the message board moves faster than we can keep up with, at least we know it's being used. And users will probably learn to stick to the common tags like [Action] [Comedy], etc... because after all... what else is there? AMV genres have been re-tread for ages. And the best ones are just timeless. If a new fad comes along, it will fade... but if it becomes successful, it will hang on to generate more discussion. The other main draw to this kind of tagging system is the opportunity for innovation is actually there. If people don't know that they can invent a new genre, they won't even try. Then the hobby just stays stagnant with no room for growth.

17- No point in bringing back old editors if they're not editing imo. Everyone already knows about them, can't we focus on new stuff? I'm not opposed to showcases of older editors as long as a show's not made out of it all the time, which it would be under this system since it carries equal weight with other threads.

Yes, everything carries equal weight as everything else, and the system will regulate itself over time. If showcases are the hot thing on the org during that little snippet timeslot of the org, then users may reconsider posting their own work for a while until things settle down a bit. And if not, someone will do it anyway, thus to serve as a reminder that showcasing is not everything. But it'll give respondees something to talk about like: "Oh, I liked what you did here. What was your source of inspiration? It reminds me of that thing that other editor did that one time --postslink-- keep up the good work XD" and stuff like that can happen. With this system, everyone gets an equal say in the matter including the new ones and the old ones all equally weighted. The new always turns to crap right before anyone ever realizes it needed some more of the old. And the old withers away just like any other unless it stands the test of time. If so, then the remaining shall prove to be useful examples to all the new ones so they shall gain footing in the sea of others that they all swim. Or something like that...

Please don't make assumptions about what someone knows or doesn't know. Because that's the only difference between any one of us anyway: Some people know things; and other don't. In fact... "Everyone already knows about them" ... that statement is just... well... wrong. Put yourself in the shoes of a new user that stumbles across AMVs. The veterans editors might know about them (and that's even a bit iffy...). But new users don't even know what an Editor is.

Point being: If older AMVs were reposted, they would serve as much needed examples to those wanting to learn how to make better AMVs. And it would be like a trip down memory lane for a lot of us...

18- Everything being under one category is just insane and no one likes to search for things, which is why you have an organized system

Or a system that nobody uses. Hence the org. A little chaos and insanity is good. But if you need organization, like I said earlier, the forum would still remain intact.

Plus, you'd have people putting their mind where their mouth is when newbie posts start mixing with discussion posts. Editors would actually read the advice of others first before posting; or get burned and learn from it. I'd like to think that by now that's happened enough that we would stop doing it. If we don't like an AMV, there's no need for insults. People can just point users in a direction where they can improve. A kind word of advice here and there... an example AMV... a tutorial... or whatever... and you're on your way. Simple as that. No need to wrangle each other out for not knowing how to do something the way the viewer wanted it to be.

On the issue of searching for things... people typically only search for things when they want something. And with the next generation of internet users, it's easier to remember what they were searching for than where it was located. Hence Google. I can't even begin to imagine how the minds of the next generation is going to think. A ton of people don't even remember what is was like before we had tabbed browsing (bonus points if you can say you remember). And don't think that that's not going to factor into the orgs design. New internet users just kind-of have tabs. Most users can't imagine what it would be like without 'em. And if they are clever, they'll even click their middle wheel button on the links they want to open into new tabs and use ctrl+tab every once in a while. Then, they'll keep doing it to the point that they even forget. If not, they'll ctrl+click; or right-click-new... or they'll just do the back-and-forth thing; get frustrated; and hate the internet; and the world because nobody told them how to do it. I bring this up because that whole process puts everything you want in one location. And so does the system I'm proposing.

19- again, too much. I like guides and I like them being updated, but all this together is going to be one big clusterfuck.

Please define "clusterfuck." I want to know if we're on the same page here. Because I can show you a clusterfuck from my perspective:
The current system does not allow for anyone to use it through segregation of clustered chunks of data. And I'm not even talking about the payload of the orgs video archive. If were just talking ASCII chunks of data the two main clusters are the catalog data and the forum data. The org is split in half. But that's no big surprise. It's natural. Most sites build the forum into the website afterwards... but personally, I think the org should take the opposite approach. Put everything into the forum. Take all the members pages, all the video pages and populate them as posts so that the org will finally become one. I mean, virtually everything can be carried within the forum by adding similar search parameters to the forums query invocations. I don't know how to do that... but if it's done, everything that the org regularly does can be accomplished by the forum itself. Instead of being the "clusterfuck" it is now-- or whatever term you'd like to use to describe the current system. I like to think of it more like a dipole database. It's not that bad.

If the org is made whole via a phpbb forum, then if you want video profile pages that contain any information you want but still hold common format? Just make a template for those posts. Your page will be in the php database including all the pictures and words within the description. Need to know an amvs premiere date? Well... then its right there where it was when you made the post in the first place. All fully searchable and sortable to contain any information the user thought was important enough to include in the original post; whether the template scheme is adhered to or not. In this way, video pages can be customized in any way that php can format your post. And that's something the org can't do.

The stuff that goes beyond what I know is how to get the query invocations to work in php like on the org. I suspect that in order for queries to return faster, certain ASCII string patterns can be used as binary markers which should help more redundant data to cluster together making the forum search quite a bit faster. Which may or may not be a better approach than what the org is using. It actually seemed pretty fast if you just compare searches for 'one piece' on the org vs the forum. About equal. Though I suspect the board caches a little better. And the browsing by anime or artist is lightning fast; on my computer, anyways. Regardless, as phpbb evolves, the org can reap the benefit of it's updates with whatever their team thinks is best, making it run smoother, and giving that extra layer of security against hackers, which is something few coders can reasonably keep up with these days.

Web standards. That's another thing I might use the term "clusterfuck" for. (I hope you don't think I'm belittling you Taite. I'm just trying to show you what things are like from my perspective, and spread a little knowledge along the way. Thanks for your post. And I'm sorry I didn't give you a proper response the first time )

5- It's not equal when it's combined with other subjects like reviews, guides, discussions, etc.
10- under that system it would have much benefit since it drowns out an editor's thread, which should be looked at as being the keystone to the site.

I think it's pretty equal when you take into account the fans as a usergroup. But PostTypes can always be tweaked; and the forums will always remain a safe place to discuss things outside of any chaos that may be created.

So what we can conclude is to take that system you proposed and break it down into more cleaner categories so guides, etc, don't overrun Amv announcements, and you basically get our current forum system. The only difference is it's not the home page when you search the org, but I don't see the big deal? I look up amvorg and directly under the home link is one for "forum." It's not that hard to find.

Oh for sure, but we're targeting potential members. Not ones that know where everything already is. New users only click the homepage. (Unless we somehow made more stuff show up in the google query... I honestly didn't even think about that )

I like the idea of implementing parts of this onto the home page so that that part of the site is more interactive and useful, other than just for searching for amvs and profiles (which I think could use a new format more since people like to be fancy with their crap but you can't currently), so I'm ok with Suggestion 2.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. If you're referring to formatting of pages, the phpbb3 has more than enough options for video profiles

Suggestion 3 absolutely not. I like watching videos with one click, great idea, but it's a subreddit, so it's not dedicated entirely to amvs because you have the whole site of reddit right in front of your face.

Ummm... no... the AMV SubReddit *is* dedicated entirely to AMVs. That's what makes it a Sub-Reddit, and not Reddit.

You can conglomerate the subreddit more into the org since people like reddit anyhow, but making it the HOME page? Terrible idea in my opinion.

Well, I was just throwing that idea out there. Because IMO, it's a pretty decent browsing experience I'm more a supporter of my first suggestion. If anything, I just wanted to point out how much potential there is in the AMV SubReddit.

It's funny you bring up the attention span thing though because that was my issue with the org when I first joined. I went to the front page, signed up, and was already bored before I got to make my profile just because there's nothing happening there. The forum is great, homepage not so much, so I'll agree with you there. I think your suggestions are worth debating, but the one thing that's needed on the home page is what it has; a clear definition of the site and a sort of concrete identity. With a subreddit it doesn't have that because it's part of reddit, the org though is it's own thing, entirely devoted to amvs. Forums also don't have that because they're ever-changing. With the home pages and profiles and all that stuff on the other 'side' of the site, they're boring and useless as they are when you're a member for so long, but they have it right when it comes to introducing the site, except that it's dull and needs to be more interactive (ie, give users more control over their profiles, allow comments on their pages, like yt, sorry to say, although they've screwed themselves over on that now too.) The home page has to be something different than a forum-style page, imo, but putting a little widjit on the homepage so people can click on thumbnails of newly released amvs with previews, that'd be great. Somehow linking the two, but not letting one override the other.
Basically, the home page should be as it is, except that it needs to look better and be less cluttered with all those damn buttons and headings, and more focus should be given to the forum on the front page, reposts are cools, and all that other stuff just goes under general discussion anyhow.

Umm... not really sure how to respond to this. But if you want a widget for new AMV's, you can check out my own site I've been tinkering with:
http://amvguide.blogspot.com/
It's not perfect, but if you just look to the right, it's got widgets. It doesn't really work on phones though :/


So... I don't think I'm really going to respond to the rest of the posts since they were mostly just retreads of what Taite said; and that's natural since most threads end up following the first poster anyway...
umm... trythil, here's some instructions if you want to give it a shot. Should be pretty easy:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/157 ... MV_002.txt
Pass it on to the higher-ups as I'm not getting anywhere with this.
If it's gonna happen it's up to you or anyone else that can do it.

Otherwise, thanks everyone for participating, and have a good day

bye now

[Request thread be locked. I think I've said everything I wanted to say.]

[Vlad G Pohnert]

I've worked on a lot of years of committee / public projects and found although opinions and feedback are a good thing, but it should only be used as more of a guide or suggestions list as everyone has their own view on how things should be.

In the end, the truth of the matter is the work just needs to happen.. However this as already pointed out will not happen if the top (owner) does not give the go ahead for change to occur (hopefully to be resolved soon).

In the end, not everyone is going to agree with a how a redesign will look, but in the end so long as it's functional and reasonably user friendly and can keep up with the demands and new terns in coding, it will work and so for those willing to do the work should not really worry too much about trying to satisfy everyone here (that will just will not happen)

Vlad

[BasharOfTheAges]

Okay, so I'm almost convince this community is intent on *trying* to die.

Yes. And why shouldn't it?

[AMVGuide]

I've worked on a lot of years of committee / public projects and found although opinions and feedback are a good thing, but it should only be used as more of a guide or suggestions list as everyone has their own view on how things should be.

In the end, the truth of the matter is the work just needs to happen.. However this as already pointed out will not happen if the top (owner) does not give the go ahead for change to occur (hopefully to be resolved soon).

In the end, not everyone is going to agree with a how a redesign will look, but in the end so long as it's functional and reasonably user friendly and can keep up with the demands and new terns in coding, it will work and so for those willing to do the work should not really worry too much about trying to satisfy everyone here (that will just will not happen)

Thanks for your response. I've PM'd Phade and I'm just waiting on a response. If it's seriously considered is all I ask. I've put a lot of thought into this, and I honestly believe it would work. If not I wouldn't have included a good chunk of necessary code and instructions on how to build it in the assessment itself.

Okay, so I'm almost convince this community is intent on *trying* to die.

Yes. And why shouldn't it?

Because if it was trying to die, it would succeed. And then everything the org has done, or was trying to do, or would do, would disappear; which would defeat the orgs very own existence.

If you just open your eyes a little, you would see that the org has much purpose. Aside from the obvious functionality, it certainly led us to this conversation for me to point out just how self-defeating that question was. But you probably already knew that.

The thing that neither of us saw was how the orgs existence led to me giving you the following piece of advice:

The brain is divided into two sides.
The left side; and the right side.
The left side controls logic; and the right side controls emotion.

Please try to strengthen the right side of your brain as one of the emotions not in it at the time of your post was empathy. And if you do not have empathy in your communication, therin forms another scenario of self-defeat.

[seasons]

I like these ideas.

They're not perfect but considering the limitations that we're working under, I think they're feasible and would boost activity on this site.

The main page does not feature any signs of an active community. It's not fun or inviting. It would be a good idea to experiment with some changes. Why not?

I like the idea of the announcements forum having a place on the front page. In the mock-ups so far, the announcements forum "window" is really huge. In the first post, this forum has about 50 visible threads. I don't know how I feel about this as it creates a kind of wall-of-text feel that made my eyes glaze a bit. Maybe make it about half as long, but make sure that the user knows that it's part of a bigger forum with even more announcements as well as everything else that we have on there.

Lots of talk about how we need to turn the front page into Youtube or Vimeo. I think that 3 or 4 embedded videos or video links would suffice. Enough to show that there's CONTENT here -- and to suggest that YOUR VIDEO COULD BE IN ONE OF THESE PROMINENT SPOTS IF YOU JOIN in whatever subtle or ridiculously obviously way you see fit -- but not so much that it overwhelms the rest of the site. There are probably hundreds or maybe thousands of Youtube-clone sites on the Internet and I don't think we should aspire to adopt their design. You should certainly employ interactive media to catch people's attention and to show what we're all about but we don't need to become AMV-tube.biz or whatever.

I took all of 20 minutes to make this (twice as long as it should have taken but I'm on a shitty netbook and I'm at work right now) and this is a good balance of forum/community presence, ACTUAL VIDEOS, and some of what's already on our home page:



If it looks crappy, well, I didn't spend much time on it and also I'm not a professional website designer. Just try to imagine some of these features coexisting on the same page and I think it gives people a lot to look at as well as making it somewhat easier to figure out what they need to do next to go deeper. Which I think they'll want to do! Or at least more than so many of them probably do these days.

Everyone's got ideas for this, you can probably find tons of problems with the OP's proposals and certainly with mine but I really think it would be worth doing something. Still haven't encountered any compelling reasons otherwise other than "THE ORG IS FUCKED, curse God and die!"

Unfortunately any changes, wither or not it requires extra programming, need to be ultimately decided by someone at the top of the food chain... and that's not really happening at the moment.

Again, either way, this would require a decision from the powers that be, which isn't going to happen any time soon.

from what I gather, the high-level administration is getting in the way.

In the end, the truth of the matter is the work just needs to happen.. However this as already pointed out will not happen if the top (owner) does not give the go ahead for change to occur (hopefully to be resolved soon).

Who are the people at the top?

[AMVGuide]

I really think it would be worth doing something.

That's pretty much the idea.
I mean, even redirecting the homepage to the AMV Announcements Forum would do infinitely more for gaining new users than the current homepage. It would mostly address bottleneck #1.

Stop forcing the cataloging rule and you're set.