Many of us do communicate and discuss things with each other quite often. It really does help and trading ideas and seeing how others handle things helps to tune your stuff. I would also recommend this approach.Ileia wrote:You may also want to contact some seasoned coordinators to get their opinions. Vlad, jingoro, VicBond, etc. They'll probably be the best resource on that front.
AMV League Feedback Thread
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Coordinators who fail to maintain necessary communication with entrants, or provide timely updates on results may be barred from announcing future events.
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ngsilver
- The Old School Otaku
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Re: AMV League Feedback Thread
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ngsilver
- The Old School Otaku
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Re: AMV League Feedback Thread
On a more serious note (not that the last comment wasn't serious, but I guess a more answer the question side of things) while you can have your views on the community and contests in general I'm not sure you are quite hitting the nail on the head. Contest submissions is a multi-facited thing and there isn't really one answer to rule them all as to why some contests get more submissions then others or why so many contests have the same videos competing.
I will admit, as an editor myself (though I consider myself a fan first) I generally only submit to a select few cons at least for a first view kind of thing (mainly AWA) and leave the rest of the cons I submit to as secondary. Much like Kio, I rarely make finals and if I do it's a really rare thing to win for me. But even starting out I never submitted to a con in order to win awards, it's all about exposure and eyeballs. While I tend to make videos I want to watch I know others could enjoy them as well so I submit to as many cons as I can. However rules restrictions and conventions sizes do tend to throw me off. Basically I tend to try to play with the big kids. I've been editing for nearly 2 decades now and I feel I should allow the newer editors to get some limelight. So smaller cons, newer contests, like the ones you run, I don't submit to generally because while I could see myself easily winning (most of my awards have come from small cons I dominated over) I don't want to troll that hard. But also there is the idea of eyeballs. The smaller the con, the smaller the audience, the fewer people get to enjoy the video.
As for the flow of the hobby. As far as I see it AMV editing is stronger now then it ever has. We have more videos, more editors, and a flood of videos. They're just not all centered around the org anymore. There are multiple smaller communities around the globe that keep their stuff tight nit. There is youtube and other communities and video sharing sites that are used more often now. The org is a dinosaur as far as most modern editors are concerned, if they bother to create a catalog entry (which to many is a chore in itself) they surely won't bother to figure out FTP to submit their video to the doughnut. These newer editors will make whatever they can, for whatever length they can, do whatever they can to make sure their video doesn't get taken down on YT (pitch shift the song, color grade the video, add effects and watermarks, ect.) and just put it there.
These aren't bad things per say. It's a little sad that the community has fragmented but then again the org has never really had a good reputation with new editors or those who don't really care to improve the craft but instead just want to make videos and get instant gratification or just not comment at all. This same trend can also be seen in contests. After all what is a contest but a competition for eyeballs and awards. To win a contest you got to get GOOD. You got to be at the top of your game. You got to be the best and take out the rest of the competition. Many new editors can see just the idea of a competition to be too exclusive either by the size of the contest, the technical mumbo-jumbo they have to adhere to in the rules, or just simply not caring about accolades. If you can get a YT upload to go viral you can get more views in a day then you could ever get at a con (even the big ones) so why bother?
There is also the issue of advertisement. Sure coordinators like us can post here on the org, over at amvcentral, and on our con's websites and forums and social media. But that only gets a small subset of potential editors. At this point no matter how many times I put info about my contests on the cons site and social media it doesn't really change the submissions. Sure I want new editors to submit (after all, new, interesting, and weird videos THRIVE at Youma) but I also want to make sure I have butts in seats and to keep them there. We have to justify having the space and we can't do that if we can't keep the room in use. So it's a balancing act. Many of us are still trying to figure out how to reach out to these other communities and let them know we would love to see their work and it can be appreciated in a convention setting.
In the end my philosophy is more about experiencing the broad ranges of videos with my audience. I try to make sure the final list of videos shown during the contest blocks are the best and most entertaining of what we received, but I also try to make sure we show every video we get at some point during the con. Our awards are seen as 'honorable mentions' which works out well for editors who like me want their videos seen at as many cons as possible for exposure and also is our way of adding a bit of whimsy to the exposition (really, we don't run a contest, it's an expo.) So yeah. The same videos winning at multiple contests is just a product of us trying to have the most entertaining videos being played and we like the same stuff our audiences do (as contests judged by judges often have the same award winners as audience judged contests for the most part) so really it's more of a differing opinion thing.
And yeah, the bigger the con, the bigger the contest, the more need we have to ensure our rooms are filled so it's often a by product of this that the same videos make it in, because these are the most entertaining over the others. That's why smaller contests, new upstarts, are still needed to allow exposure to the 'lesser' videos that we may still enjoy and think are good but we realize the broad audience wouldn't enjoy as much. So keep doing you.
I will admit, as an editor myself (though I consider myself a fan first) I generally only submit to a select few cons at least for a first view kind of thing (mainly AWA) and leave the rest of the cons I submit to as secondary. Much like Kio, I rarely make finals and if I do it's a really rare thing to win for me. But even starting out I never submitted to a con in order to win awards, it's all about exposure and eyeballs. While I tend to make videos I want to watch I know others could enjoy them as well so I submit to as many cons as I can. However rules restrictions and conventions sizes do tend to throw me off. Basically I tend to try to play with the big kids. I've been editing for nearly 2 decades now and I feel I should allow the newer editors to get some limelight. So smaller cons, newer contests, like the ones you run, I don't submit to generally because while I could see myself easily winning (most of my awards have come from small cons I dominated over) I don't want to troll that hard. But also there is the idea of eyeballs. The smaller the con, the smaller the audience, the fewer people get to enjoy the video.
As for the flow of the hobby. As far as I see it AMV editing is stronger now then it ever has. We have more videos, more editors, and a flood of videos. They're just not all centered around the org anymore. There are multiple smaller communities around the globe that keep their stuff tight nit. There is youtube and other communities and video sharing sites that are used more often now. The org is a dinosaur as far as most modern editors are concerned, if they bother to create a catalog entry (which to many is a chore in itself) they surely won't bother to figure out FTP to submit their video to the doughnut. These newer editors will make whatever they can, for whatever length they can, do whatever they can to make sure their video doesn't get taken down on YT (pitch shift the song, color grade the video, add effects and watermarks, ect.) and just put it there.
These aren't bad things per say. It's a little sad that the community has fragmented but then again the org has never really had a good reputation with new editors or those who don't really care to improve the craft but instead just want to make videos and get instant gratification or just not comment at all. This same trend can also be seen in contests. After all what is a contest but a competition for eyeballs and awards. To win a contest you got to get GOOD. You got to be at the top of your game. You got to be the best and take out the rest of the competition. Many new editors can see just the idea of a competition to be too exclusive either by the size of the contest, the technical mumbo-jumbo they have to adhere to in the rules, or just simply not caring about accolades. If you can get a YT upload to go viral you can get more views in a day then you could ever get at a con (even the big ones) so why bother?
There is also the issue of advertisement. Sure coordinators like us can post here on the org, over at amvcentral, and on our con's websites and forums and social media. But that only gets a small subset of potential editors. At this point no matter how many times I put info about my contests on the cons site and social media it doesn't really change the submissions. Sure I want new editors to submit (after all, new, interesting, and weird videos THRIVE at Youma) but I also want to make sure I have butts in seats and to keep them there. We have to justify having the space and we can't do that if we can't keep the room in use. So it's a balancing act. Many of us are still trying to figure out how to reach out to these other communities and let them know we would love to see their work and it can be appreciated in a convention setting.
In the end my philosophy is more about experiencing the broad ranges of videos with my audience. I try to make sure the final list of videos shown during the contest blocks are the best and most entertaining of what we received, but I also try to make sure we show every video we get at some point during the con. Our awards are seen as 'honorable mentions' which works out well for editors who like me want their videos seen at as many cons as possible for exposure and also is our way of adding a bit of whimsy to the exposition (really, we don't run a contest, it's an expo.) So yeah. The same videos winning at multiple contests is just a product of us trying to have the most entertaining videos being played and we like the same stuff our audiences do (as contests judged by judges often have the same award winners as audience judged contests for the most part) so really it's more of a differing opinion thing.
And yeah, the bigger the con, the bigger the contest, the more need we have to ensure our rooms are filled so it's often a by product of this that the same videos make it in, because these are the most entertaining over the others. That's why smaller contests, new upstarts, are still needed to allow exposure to the 'lesser' videos that we may still enjoy and think are good but we realize the broad audience wouldn't enjoy as much. So keep doing you.
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Kionon
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Re: AMV League Feedback Thread
While I hate to be that person, I'm going to +1 everything Nate said above. But rather than leave it at that, because "me too!" posts are lame...
There's always been a HUGE "instant gratification" factor to AMV editing, and the history of internet infrastructure has just made that easier and easier. There was a time when the Org represented the path of least resistance, believe it or not. Gratification wasn't instant, but it was pretty close. If you did figure out how to upload to doughnut, well, in the heyday, you could drop your link with a poster image into AMV Announcements and get dozens or even hundreds of responses, some very detailed, in short order. A matter of hours at the Org's peak, generally a matter of a few days before or after the peak. Around 2005-2006, or so, this place was INSANELY fast.
YouTube and social media pretty much killed that. It's a matter of personal injury to me, because the Org is my only faction, my only fragment, and I feel like a foreigner outside of the Org. This is my home, and elsewhere, I'm simply a visitor, and I don't tend to stay for long. That being said, I absolutely concur with Nate that the issue is NOT that AMV editing or the AMV community is dying. That's demonstrably not true. As was mentioned before, the Org is not the hobby as a whole. It's a very small patch of it. That said, it's my patch, and the BEST way I see to account for our current deficiency, honestly, is conversations like this. This honestly is one of the best most involved discussions outside of "LOL AWA" I've seen in months, and I have a vested interest in keeping it going.
I'm really interested in what you can bring to the Org (speaking as myself, and not as a moderator, I am representing my own views, not the views of the Site), but I'm not sure what that is. This is kind of what I was getting at when I was asking why should I participate? I live thousands of miles from any convention. I haven't been to a convention in years. So if you want me to participate, I need to know how my participation here, in this space, warrants the effort. I don't care about winning, but I do care about being involved in something that keeps traffic in my house. I'll be happy to whip up something for AMV League if I can see it generating content here.
There's always been a HUGE "instant gratification" factor to AMV editing, and the history of internet infrastructure has just made that easier and easier. There was a time when the Org represented the path of least resistance, believe it or not. Gratification wasn't instant, but it was pretty close. If you did figure out how to upload to doughnut, well, in the heyday, you could drop your link with a poster image into AMV Announcements and get dozens or even hundreds of responses, some very detailed, in short order. A matter of hours at the Org's peak, generally a matter of a few days before or after the peak. Around 2005-2006, or so, this place was INSANELY fast.
YouTube and social media pretty much killed that. It's a matter of personal injury to me, because the Org is my only faction, my only fragment, and I feel like a foreigner outside of the Org. This is my home, and elsewhere, I'm simply a visitor, and I don't tend to stay for long. That being said, I absolutely concur with Nate that the issue is NOT that AMV editing or the AMV community is dying. That's demonstrably not true. As was mentioned before, the Org is not the hobby as a whole. It's a very small patch of it. That said, it's my patch, and the BEST way I see to account for our current deficiency, honestly, is conversations like this. This honestly is one of the best most involved discussions outside of "LOL AWA" I've seen in months, and I have a vested interest in keeping it going.
I'm really interested in what you can bring to the Org (speaking as myself, and not as a moderator, I am representing my own views, not the views of the Site), but I'm not sure what that is. This is kind of what I was getting at when I was asking why should I participate? I live thousands of miles from any convention. I haven't been to a convention in years. So if you want me to participate, I need to know how my participation here, in this space, warrants the effort. I don't care about winning, but I do care about being involved in something that keeps traffic in my house. I'll be happy to whip up something for AMV League if I can see it generating content here.
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MaboroshiStudio
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Re: AMV League Feedback Thread
Freshness and award limits are a very simple solution and have been discussed. At MTAC we have an award limit and it works very nicely...
Since returning from a decade long retirement things are very different in my eyes. Trolling and pandering were often looked down upon in the olden days, but that opinion doesn't exist anymore as far as I can see or it is not discussed like it was in the old days. I used to send a video to 2-3 cons max, but that isn't the norm now. While I feel guilty at times trolling a video too much... I tell myself that is how things are now and I just need to stop being lazy / make a new amv. Now if more cons had freshness and award limits it would force editors to create newer stuff... AX when they changed their rules a couple years ago did just this.
The issue is this won't automatically allow younger editors to get their videos in... but it will give them a better chance.
The concept of the league / circuit is interesting, but I have no clue how good the contests are and how the experience is for the audience. I think something like the league can work as a break from the norm just like contests with freshness / award limits.
As far as interest and AMVs dying people need to stop pushing this myth... AMV entries are up at most contests. If anything more how to panels and getting younger editors into it is needed where they will be better prepared to compete.
Since returning from a decade long retirement things are very different in my eyes. Trolling and pandering were often looked down upon in the olden days, but that opinion doesn't exist anymore as far as I can see or it is not discussed like it was in the old days. I used to send a video to 2-3 cons max, but that isn't the norm now. While I feel guilty at times trolling a video too much... I tell myself that is how things are now and I just need to stop being lazy / make a new amv. Now if more cons had freshness and award limits it would force editors to create newer stuff... AX when they changed their rules a couple years ago did just this.
The issue is this won't automatically allow younger editors to get their videos in... but it will give them a better chance.
The concept of the league / circuit is interesting, but I have no clue how good the contests are and how the experience is for the audience. I think something like the league can work as a break from the norm just like contests with freshness / award limits.
As far as interest and AMVs dying people need to stop pushing this myth... AMV entries are up at most contests. If anything more how to panels and getting younger editors into it is needed where they will be better prepared to compete.
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Pathos Prime
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:41 pm
Re: AMV League Feedback Thread
Do y'all think it'd help if we tried to set up a live-stream of an AMV League Event? Maybe at A-Kon or San Japan?MaboroshiStudio wrote:The concept of the league / circuit is interesting, but I have no clue how good the contests are and how the experience is for the audience.
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Kionon
- I ♥ the 80's
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Re: AMV League Feedback Thread
Short answer: yes. Better if we could have commentary going in a thread on the Org.Pathos Prime wrote:Do y'all think it'd help if we tried to set up a live-stream of an AMV League Event? Maybe at A-Kon or San Japan?MaboroshiStudio wrote:The concept of the league / circuit is interesting, but I have no clue how good the contests are and how the experience is for the audience.
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MaboroshiStudio
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Re: AMV League Feedback Thread
Possibly... still the concept of 1 and done though and judged only I question tho (that is how it is correct?). I recently made a video that I heard did very well at Anime Boston, but judges / screeners do not like. I made it for the fans / crowds and from what I hear they really enjoyed it, but it doesn't seem to be getting much love from the judges / screeners. Essentially I feel like retiring the video because I don't think it is getting a fair shake. Everything is subjective and often I looked down on pandering videos in the past, but when we judge at MTAC I always consider how the audience will enjoy a video even if I don't.Pathos Prime wrote:Do y'all think it'd help if we tried to set up a live-stream of an AMV League Event? Maybe at A-Kon or San Japan?MaboroshiStudio wrote:The concept of the league / circuit is interesting, but I have no clue how good the contests are and how the experience is for the audience.
I ask are AMV contests about what the coordinators / judges want, the audience or editor? I say it is all as I want the audience to have a good time... I want the editors to have the day in the sun and it is my job to get out of the way as it isn't all about what I want. There is something to be said for allowing the audience to vote for their favorite video. As far as pandering videos having an advantage over others this is NOTHING new... it has always been this way. I wish more AMV contests would allow pure parody videos, but I get the drawback as they don't fight fair with typical AMVs. The simple solution for that is to only allow them to only eligible for category award and or in the case of MTAC we have fan favorite BIS (judged)... a pure parody is not eligible for Fan Favorite, but it is for BIS as we won't be as easily swayed.
Also consider the audience when they go to a judged contest and if they all love video X... but video X doesn't get an award don't you think they will leave the event say what?
Still I think the league while very different adds variety to the AMV con schedule, but I would get concerned if the league events aren't spaced out enough. I mean if there was a slew of AMV contest in a row that had very restrictive freshness dates it wouldn't be good. Everything in moderation I say...
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Goober4473
- Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:05 am
Re: AMV League Feedback Thread
This is actually kind of why I like submitting to AMV League. I feel like most contests are all about the audience, and that makes it feel unfair to me as an editor. I wouldn't be so condescending as to say audience members don't know enough to judge a video at all, but I do feel like videos that pander to the latest trends or memes seem to win over much better videos pretty consistently. The League gives me a very clear set of judging criteria that I feel is very fair when evaluating a video, and I definitely trust pretty much any two random AMV editors with a clear set of criteria than I do the masses. Hell, I'd be perfectly happy with audience judging if everyone was given that kind of specific criteria to follow. It's just that that's not a very realistic way to run a show.BasharOfTheAges wrote:As a contest coordinator your JOB is to entertain the audience, not to get on your social equality high horse and dictate what should or shouldn't compete. 95+% of your audience does not attend more than 1 con a year they don't know and don't care about how any other contest went. Your responsibility is to them, not to editors, not to the hobby in general, to the audience. You aim to create objectively worse experiences for your audiences... Why do cons let you even run stuff? Are the execs not aware?
Ultimately of course, conventions are put together for fans en mass, who are paying to be there, and not for a small number of creators like me. So I can't blame coordinators for choosing audience fun and participation over (more) fair judging for editors or exposure for newer editors. But I still feel a lot better about submitting to the AMV League than most other contests. I feel more prioritized, as one of the people spending massive amounts of time making content for the audience to appreciate.
One thing I do like though is when a contest has an "Audience Choice" award. Everything else can then be judged by (theoretically objective/expert) judges, but we still get to celebrate "fan favorite" videos with a cool extra award. Perhaps that would be a valuable category to add to League events?
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MaboroshiStudio
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Re: AMV League Feedback Thread
This is nothing new and has been happening for the past 20 years... when I first started back in the 90s I moaned about pandering videos. I preferred winning not having to pander, but after a near decade retirement I am the opposite now just having fun and have no issues making pandering amvs. The biggest from then to now is the amount of trolling... back then trolling was frowned upon within the community and editors generally didn't do it. That is clearly not the case anymore... *looks in the mirror*Goober4473 wrote:I feel like most contests are all about the audience, and that makes it feel unfair to me as an editor. I wouldn't be so condescending as to say audience members don't know enough to judge a video at all, but I do feel like videos that pander to the latest trends or memes seem to win over much better videos pretty consistently.
You're comment on the audience should be given a specific criteria to followed can be said of judges as well. Everyone often will show their personal bias... and AMV judges / coordinators are not perfect either. Also there are coordinator's choice and other awards like this that is intended to address the issues you bring up.Goober4473 wrote:The League gives me a very clear set of judging criteria that I feel is very fair when evaluating a video, and I definitely trust pretty much any two random AMV editors with a clear set of criteria than I do the masses. Hell, I'd be perfectly happy with audience judging if everyone was given that kind of specific criteria to follow. It's just that that's not a very realistic way to run a show.
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Pysh
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:07 am
Re: AMV League Feedback Thread
I can't say much since I'm not that experienced or know much about judging process and all but being in the community for about a year now and having participated in couple of cons. I'd like to put a little of my input too.
I agree with certain points that all of the editors have listed here especially one from BasherOfTheAges that it's about Audience, not the editors. It's just an opinion and my perspective... any such event or show is meant to entertain audience giving 'em the best experience possible. Being a competition... judges are obliged to choose the best of received entries but sometimes what I've seen is that's not the case. It's true that some videos repetitively keep getting on top at almost every con but there also must be different people attending amv show at different con at least majority of 'em and so there's no reason for an editor to not submit a video at multiple cons and for others to get discouraged on not getting shortlisted.
Most of the points I wanted to say are already covered by Nate. Believe me, there are so many amazing amv editors out there but some are not even aware of this site or these competitions. Maybe they have visited here or had an account but not really been able to keep up with it. Org is not the only site where we can find amvs and editors but there are many other small communities we are not even aware of. Those who have motivation and passion keep making amvs, some are of quality and some are not. Just because org's getting less entries and contests not getting quality stuff don't mean there are not Good amvs being made. Sure we need to create awareness and encourage editors but that's what categories are for... like an award for best Novice and Rookie and also Honorable mentions are more than enough to encourage an editor and appreciate his efforts even it didn't perform well overall. Here again we can discuss about amvs and it's categories and all but I'll not go in detail just so to stay on topic.
I also agree that audience voting should be given preference but it has it's own problems too. So I think Judges decision should also be considered while determining the final results, after all they are 'Judges'. As I said I don't know much about judging process and all and how judges are selected to judge the show but I hope whoever they are, they sure must be experienced editors. But for anyone who disagree there's always audience choice right ? So we can have both i mean why not ? We'd know both Judge's choice and Audience Choice
. Talking about videos that are highly technical i mean having lot of effects and masking and all doesn't necessarily count to be Good videos unless it really has an entertainment factor or some meaning in it. I mean the content and aesthetics should matter more than the technical stuff. As Kionon said... there are many videos having technical flaws but if it put an impact on the viewer and viewer enjoys it then the efforts making the video were successful. But Yea they need to observe and learn technical stuff too in order to make videos better in quality and looks. And how 'll they know unless someone points that out ? That's exactly why AMV League is a Good system to give editors an opportunity to improve and get better. I had just participated once but I really liked it. I asked for scores and all and it really helped me as they provided detailed scores of video in all aspects and also reviews of both judges.
As for what can be done to improve the contest... ? Since most of the contests are open to all editors around the globe, most of the participants don't get to or can't attend the con and so to make contest experience better for participants I think reaction video is the one thing any editor would wish for. Other than that everything that can be done to improve a contest has been discussed upon in this and other threads.
I agree with certain points that all of the editors have listed here especially one from BasherOfTheAges that it's about Audience, not the editors. It's just an opinion and my perspective... any such event or show is meant to entertain audience giving 'em the best experience possible. Being a competition... judges are obliged to choose the best of received entries but sometimes what I've seen is that's not the case. It's true that some videos repetitively keep getting on top at almost every con but there also must be different people attending amv show at different con at least majority of 'em and so there's no reason for an editor to not submit a video at multiple cons and for others to get discouraged on not getting shortlisted.
Most of the points I wanted to say are already covered by Nate. Believe me, there are so many amazing amv editors out there but some are not even aware of this site or these competitions. Maybe they have visited here or had an account but not really been able to keep up with it. Org is not the only site where we can find amvs and editors but there are many other small communities we are not even aware of. Those who have motivation and passion keep making amvs, some are of quality and some are not. Just because org's getting less entries and contests not getting quality stuff don't mean there are not Good amvs being made. Sure we need to create awareness and encourage editors but that's what categories are for... like an award for best Novice and Rookie and also Honorable mentions are more than enough to encourage an editor and appreciate his efforts even it didn't perform well overall. Here again we can discuss about amvs and it's categories and all but I'll not go in detail just so to stay on topic.
I also agree that audience voting should be given preference but it has it's own problems too. So I think Judges decision should also be considered while determining the final results, after all they are 'Judges'. As I said I don't know much about judging process and all and how judges are selected to judge the show but I hope whoever they are, they sure must be experienced editors. But for anyone who disagree there's always audience choice right ? So we can have both i mean why not ? We'd know both Judge's choice and Audience Choice
. Talking about videos that are highly technical i mean having lot of effects and masking and all doesn't necessarily count to be Good videos unless it really has an entertainment factor or some meaning in it. I mean the content and aesthetics should matter more than the technical stuff. As Kionon said... there are many videos having technical flaws but if it put an impact on the viewer and viewer enjoys it then the efforts making the video were successful. But Yea they need to observe and learn technical stuff too in order to make videos better in quality and looks. And how 'll they know unless someone points that out ? That's exactly why AMV League is a Good system to give editors an opportunity to improve and get better. I had just participated once but I really liked it. I asked for scores and all and it really helped me as they provided detailed scores of video in all aspects and also reviews of both judges. As for what can be done to improve the contest... ? Since most of the contests are open to all editors around the globe, most of the participants don't get to or can't attend the con and so to make contest experience better for participants I think reaction video is the one thing any editor would wish for. Other than that everything that can be done to improve a contest has been discussed upon in this and other threads.
