AMV Contests Banning or Discouraging Editor-created Subtitles?

[MarshmallowGoop]

I opened up a conversation about this in the Sakura-Con contest thread, but a separate thread is more appropriate.

Most of my personal thoughts on the topic are summed up in this post, but the short of it is that I find rules banning (or even strongly discouraging) editor-created subtitles (for song lyrics, etc.) to be very disheartening and exclusionary. (The post is focused on the US because it's a US contest, but I'm also interested in perspectives for contests around the world!)

I'm wondering:

• Does outright banning an accessibility feature like subtitles break any accessibility laws (in the US or elsewhere)?

• If anyone's been to contests/run contests that allowed editor-created subtitles, were there complaints about the subs, and that's what created rules discouraging or banning them?

• Would anyone strongly appreciate subtitled AMVs at cons? (I know I would!)

[SpuddStaaa]

Are the subtitles like lyrics for the song or are they like closed captions with sound effects as well? Maybe it could be cool to have subtitles in videos, but note that unless all editors decide to subtitle their videos, then it's really just a couple videos considered as accessible. I think a video example of what you're looking for would help me understand?

[PrincessMareep]

If you ever submit to a contest I run, I don't mind the subtitles as long as you're the one who put them in there (fan-made)

I never considered adding subtitles to AMVs for accessibility, but as someone who is disabled, I love the inclusion and thinking of other people in the audience. ^^

[Kireblue]

Just to give some context, the subtitle rule in most AMV Contests is meant to disqualify videos that use subtitles from the actual anime. And they don't typically apply to subtitles that were created by the editor for the video. Here is a link to the A-M-V.org CONGRSS Rules that serve as a set of standards and guidelines used in a vast majority of AMV Competitions.

Video & Audio Quality

1. Videos should not contain watermarks, TV logos, studio bumpers, credits, or references to other events/ competitions that are either not directly related to the video content, or unnecessary for the video concept. Videos should also not contain subtitles that were not created by the editor.

[ComplicatedMuse]

My opinion may be unpopular... but I do question how much plain subtitle really enhances accessibility... (of course, this is coming from an ignorant person with no known hearing problems...)

Overall, I'm fascinated about this topic. And I'd be really curious if there are anyone here with hearing problems that can help.

My ignorant perspective is subtitle alone doesn't make it that much more accessible as a MUSICAL experience. But that's just my bias. For example, I read subtitles on Japanese anime, but I do not need lyrics to enjoy Japanese songs. I watch Japanese music videos and enjoy them without understanding a single word...

Because English isn't my first language, I actually have closed captioning on at all times on TV. I now know English much better and captioning isn't completely necessary, but it's a habit. I think closed captioning would be great to include on any online platform. (In fact, I have offered some of my videos with translated subs.)

But the thing is your eyes can only capture so much at a time. Reading closed captioning will make you miss something on the screen - I think all of us who have watched anime with subs have at one point or another rewinded.

But rewind isn't an option at live events, which is what these cons are... And I don't think the cons are quite resourced to produce a fully immersive event (though that'd be cool). Because of this thread, I've actually done some research in the topic. Sign language and/or immersive subtitling is what is typically done at concerts to deliver a sensorial experience. I think that's really neat.

I think if a video can somehow replicate this sensorial experience, that'd be really cool. On a separate and related note, I've also found many ASL music videos. Of course, there are also lyrics videos - and those also typically have the text creatively applied. Overall, it delivers a visual / sensorial experience. But in these creative text lyrics videos, the accompanying pictures are usually simpler. So, how to accomplish something like this without it competing with anime clips would be a feat that takes more than my current skills.

Therefore, I do wonder if having plain subtitle is really creating an accessible experience. Or is that just what we assume? Also, would we risk doing a something is better than nothing approach and end up with a wheelchair ramp that's too steep...?

I'd like to be clear, I don't think AMV as an art form fundamentally should exclude any population. But I typically take a cautious approach in assuming something that's meant for group A can easily be adapted can call it also fit for group B, as in an AMV built with the intention of appealing to hearing population probably is built fundamentally differently with the intention of appearing to those with hearing problems. Don't put a piece of wood on top of a stair and call it an accessible entry... [I hope I don't offend any disable person, but it's one of few forms of accessibility I understand. I can hear and walk... If anything is worded ignorantly, it is purely because I'm ignorant of the topic, but I have no ill-intent. I'm opened to be educated.]

[XStylus]

I opened up a conversation about this in the Sakura-Con contest thread, but a separate thread is more appropriate.

Most of my personal thoughts on the topic are summed up in this post, but the short of it is that I find rules banning (or even strongly discouraging) editor-created subtitles (for song lyrics, etc.) to be very disheartening and exclusionary. (The post is focused on the US because it's a US contest, but I'm also interested in perspectives for contests around the world!)

I'm wondering:

• Does outright banning an accessibility feature like subtitles break any accessibility laws (in the US or elsewhere)?

• If anyone's been to contests/run contests that allowed editor-created subtitles, were there complaints about the subs, and that's what created rules discouraging or banning them?

• Would anyone strongly appreciate subtitled AMVs at cons? (I know I would!)

Here's my original reasoning behind Sakura-Con's anti-subtitle (originally it was more of an anti-text) rule: Video is a motion picture medium. I don't mean "Motion Pictures" with a captial M and P, rather, it is a medium that involves a series of sequential pictures that simulate motion and action. When using that medium, the story should be told in a manner that fully utilizes those properties. Text is a crutch at minimum, a distraction at worst. And believe it or not, the rule used to be much more strict in prior years. I've actually relaxed that rule a lot.

The reason for the anti-subtitle rule is to eliminate that crutch. "Show. Not tell." That is a lesson that was hammered into me when I was in Film school when I went to college. Do words have their place? Yes. But as a spice, not the entree. Subtitles are permitted if they are an artistically necessary component of the AMV's concept (here's one example, here's another). However, if they're just a bottom-thirds recitation of the lyrics and the AMV works just as well (or better) without them, then they absolutely should not be there. I feel very, very, very strongly about that.

That said, you raise a different concern: Accessibility. That is an altogether different matter, and a worthy one. However, if you want to push that argument, then that would require an all-or-nothing change whereby all AMVs are subtitled. If we were to do that though, it wouldn't go quite the way you'd think.

The only way I would entertain the idea of subtitling AMVs for accessibility reasons would be if there were a solution whereby an audience member could choose their experience, just like you can with a DVD or Blu-Ray -- with subtitles on, or with subtitles off. This is because (and I'm trying to say this as delicately as possible) I do not wish to pursue a solution that may marginally improve the experience for a small few at the cost of diminishing the experience for the many.

However, at events that use multiple screens, that may be theoretically possible. Sakura-Con is such an convention (left-side, right-side, and center), and I could envision having one screen show the AMVs with subtitles overlaid, whereas the others do not. Unfortunately that would present some complicated technical challenges and a greatly increased pre-event workload, both in time and labor. We're all unpaid volunteers at a non-profit event, so that's not an easy ask.

But let's say we were to do so in that manner. Our anti-subtitle rule for our event would still remain, and we would add the subtitles during our event prep. (It would likely also force us to kick the deadline back another month to factor in time for us to do the requisite typesetting and timing, not to mention hunting for translated lyric sheets for foreign songs or esoteric songs, etc.)

As I said, accessibility is a worthy topic for discussion. The key is in finding the right method to address that. While I am extremely open to solutions on how to enhance accessibility of our AMV event, I do not believe going all-in on subtitles will be the solution.


Phew. I hope I didn't come off as too spicy with all of that above, but as I said, I feel very strongly about this topic. ...And now I'm sure next year there'll be a few AMV vets who'll troll me by sending vids filled with as much text as they think they can get away with.

[Mango]

Hello Mango, coordinator @ Anime NYC chiming in to say that I believe, and know, that subtitles is a worthy way to provide accessibility at contests. There's sometimes myself, who is not deaf or hard of hearing, where I'll encounter an AMV at a convention contest where I can't make out the lyrics of a song due to audio mixing / venue concerns and do genuinely wish know what's being said as I feel the AMV in question has an unfair disadvantage where I don't know if the scenes match the lyrics for a fair assessment. I feel like subtitles would help alleviate that. Afterall, I turn on subtitles whenever I can, when I play video games, watch movies and tv-shows.

I would like to shout out one convention that subtitles every AMV in it's AMV Contest, and it's Tora Con, so I especially praise them because I understand that there are many logistical challenges in doing so.

Either way I will leave it at that.

[Kireblue]

I'll be a little more frank with you. Even though I run MomoCon's AMV Contest, which uses the "subtitles must be created by the editor" rule, I rarely see anyone use subtitles in their videos in a way that doesn't significantly harm their video. And so if someone would blanketly ask me if subtitles are allowed, I'd generally discourage it.

BUT, I decided to check out some of your videos, and I gotta say that you put in far more effort in designing your subtitles than I've seen from any other AMV editor. They are very well done and timed, so I definitely wouldn't DQ it. And since they're color-coded and synced to the song, they become part of the production. So I think what you're doing is kinda the exception to the rules and guidelines that most contests have. Although you'll run into hardliners here and there, if you wanted to send your video to MomoCon, I'd allow it.

[Kazemon15]

Deaf/hard of hearing editor here. I am unsure how many of us are there but...

I think subtitles on AMVs for lyrics/voice overs are actually a very good for accessibility. I cannot hear lyrics very well when it's coupled with music unless I listen to the song over and over in a lyric video, then I am able to make out what is said by reading alongside while listening.

I cannot tell you how many times for comedy entries that I just sat there, wishing it to be over because I didn't understand a word of what the comedy was about if it was audio only and not visual. It's part of the reason I stopped going to AMV contests because I didn't find it fair to vote for the "funniest" video which I had no idea if it was well made or not due to this lack of information cuz I was just born that way....or the fact that someone chose a song that fit perfectly with the scene lyrical wise and I miss it because I couldn't hear the lyrics.

Personally, I would love the compromise that maybe one screen had subtitles in the future for accessibility. I know it would be a nightmare to try and pull off, but I think it would help a lot more people besides just the deaf/hard of hearing community. I also have a processing disorder which also adds to my misunderstanding of lyrics in songs and I am pretty sure I am not the only one. Autistic people have this issue as well and Im sure other disabilities and/or people who have English as a second language also benefit from this.

I have to work 3 times as hard to make an amv due to not hearing lyrical/beat sync, but I still enjoy editing regardless... so seeing a bit more accessibility would make me very grateful.

[ComplicatedMuse]

I checked out some of the videos since last night too! I also thought what you called karaoke-style subtitle is a far more interesting artistic choice than plain subtitles. But I don't run any contests, so my thoughts doesn't really matter here in the end

how do you do that? Is it programmed into the srt file? {of course, if that's your special sauce, don't feel obligated to share }