AMV Contests Banning or Discouraging Editor-created Subtitles?

[MarshmallowGoop]

I actually meant to post an addendum to my last response; I realized pretty quickly in retrospect how extremely self-centered it came off, and I'm sorry for that. It's just taken 'til now for me to be able to say anything.

So: this isn't about me. It's about accessibility at cons. It is so, so, so much bigger than me.

The conversation may have started with a question about submitting my own subtitled AMV to a contest, but believe me, I very much was thinking of the deeper implications (hence this thread). It's not about my one video. Like, y'all, I don't think I have big delusions of grandeur here; I'm a novice editor who typically edits in a style that isn't favored at AMV contests, and Sakura-Con is a big con with a big AMV contest. Seriously, I thought I had about a 0.01% chance of ever making it into the finals in the first place. My video being shown or not isn't the point.

The point is that I find the anti-subtitle rule to be anti-accessibility. And that affects far more than just me or just one AMV.

Let me try another analogy. Bear with me! This'll be my last one. If I can't persuade folks with this, I throw up my hands and give up. But let me at least give it a shot.

From what I understand, there are legal requirements for Braille in the United States—it's needed for room signage. But something like a Braille menu at a restaurant isn't legally enforced.

So, say you're an employee at a restaurant. You want to put in the work to get a Braille menu made for every table because you'd like to make the restaurant more accessible for blind and low-vision patrons, and you tell this to the restaurant owner.

And say the restaurant owner answers, "No way! I'll fire you if you do that! I don't like the way Braille menus look! It wouldn't be uniform with the other menus, and it'd be distracting to the other patrons! And what's the point anyway if we're the only restaurant in town that has Braille menus?"

The restaurant owner isn't breaking any accessibility laws by forbidding you from making the menus. It's their personal preference—they don't like Braille menus. But wouldn't you be upset? Wouldn't you find it exclusionary—that the owner is so unwilling to be more welcoming to people with disabilities? Wouldn't you think that, even if you're the only restaurant in town with Braille menus, that's better than no restaurants in town having Braille menus?

No, this isn't a perfect analogy. But I hope it illustrates where I'm coming from. As demonstrated in this very thread, arguing for an entire AMV contest to be subtitled is arguing for a big step that requires a lot of extra work and coordination. But a contest allowing participants to submit their own subtitles? Encouraging it, even? Maybe it'd start with only a couple AMVs being subbed in a contest, but then maybe that'd inspire more, and more, and eventually, there'd be enough demonstrated interest to really go through with making an entire contest subtitled.

In the Sakura-Con thread, I admitted that maybe AMV contests just aren't for me because of the anti-subtitle stances I've seen around. And maybe I'm off my rocker, thinking that an anti-subtitle stance is equivalent to an anti-accessibility stance, but I don't think I could be in my line if work if I didn't think that. I don't think I could be in my line of work if I wasn't insistent about arguing for the importance and power of subtitles. I've said it time and time again, but research shows that subtitles increase accessibility for most people.

So, how many others might feel similarly to me? Not wanting to submit to AMV contests because they know that their content won't be shown with this kind of accessibility? Afraid to include that kind of accessibility because they'll be disqualified? Avoiding AMV contests because they know nothing there will be subbed because of anti-subtitle stances?

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but an anti-subtitle stance comes off to me as the exact opposite of welcoming. It says, to me, that people who might benefit from subtitles aren't welcome at AMV contests and aren't welcome to submit AMVs that keep people who would benefit from subtitles in mind.

(And as an aside (and for some context): since Sakura-Con does not allow subtitles, I used an AI vocal remover to remove the vocals from my entry and submitted that as a way to demonstrate how crucial lyrics can be in an AMV that uses a song with lyrics. It was maybe an unkind, trolly thing to do, but I already had an entrant code, and I thought I might as well say something with it if I couldn't submit my AMV in the accessible way that I wanted to.

My AMV—at least to me!—was made substantially worse with the removal of the vocals. Scenes that I worked so hard to pair with the lyrics completely lost that connection. You can still make out a story, sure, but so much no longer fits.

And for anyone who can't access the lyrics without subtitles? That's how the AMV would come off—far inferior. Even I was shocked by how much of a difference having those lyrics made.

Have I watched AMVs in languages I don't know and enjoyed them even without understanding what was being said? Sure! But I'm sure my enjoyment would also be vastly increased if I did understand what the editor was doing with the lyrics. Accessibility to lyrics makes a difference. It matters. Subtitles matter. And while typography-style AMVs are very neat, I don't think I should have to make one in order to have more accessibility to the lyrics at a con contest.)

Finally: from the sound of it, my thread seems to have been very productive! And that's what matters the most, in the end: more accessibility at cons.

[XStylus]

[giant wall of text that didn't address the reply at all]

Please go back and actually read my reply, because it's clear you had not.

To reiterate, a potential solution at the operations/technical/presentation level is being discussed (though granted, nothing is solid yet) that would go above and beyond what you're asking and offers a win-win compromise since it offers the audience a choice for their viewing experience, which thus addresses my concerns.

If your goal was indeed what you claim it was, you'd be cheering that and declaring victory, yet you continue to spin in circles on this issue like a scratched record. This makes wonder whether you actually do care, or if you simply just want to pout until you get things exactly your way.

In any case, I think I've heard enough. I've extended the courtesy of hearing you out and proposing a compromise, I don't feel you've given me the same courtesy. If you're uncomfortable with the rules of our event, there are other events that might suit you better. Please move on.

[MarshmallowGoop]

I really failed at my response if it makes it seem I didn't read the reply at all! I read it several, several times, and I couldn't stop thinking about it all day.

But you're right—and this is what I tried to address in my post: ultimately, what is happening is so, so, so much better than what I wanted! The idea of having one screen with subtitles is literally the perfect solution I thought didn't even exist. Going into this, I thought it'd be impossible to please everyone—that there wasn't an option like what movie theaters do with subtitles at contests, and the best thing you could do was compromise. That that's not true at all? Seriously, I can't tell you how happy that makes me. I am over the moon with where this all went.

I only felt as though that the contention against the anti-subtitle rule wasn't being heard. And you're right; maybe that doesn't matter. At the end of the day, I'm very pleased with what's happening. I do see it as a victory, and believe me, I'm done spinning in circles on this topic! I'm exhausted! And like I said in the post, if I haven't been heard now, I won't ever be. I tried my best to argue why it's important, but if it's being done even if folks don't see it as important? That's what matters the most.

[Ileia]

This makes wonder whether you actually do care, or if you simply just want to pout until you get things exactly your way.

You're way out of line.

Your wall of text at her was super condescending about how much she cares about the topic. She's not wrong, she's not going about it "in an unproductive way", or "myopically insistent" for advocating for something that means more people could interact with the contest.

Frankly, she's being super patient while trying to explain why this matters. And she's repeated multiple times that, yes, it was her video that brought up the subject, but what she's arguing for is that ANYONE should be allowed to submit a captioned video.

You need to take a step back and look at how you're responding to this. How hard would it have been FROM THE JUMP to say, "Thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention. We will discuss it at our next staff meeting."

Being open to the idea of adding accessible options - even if you can't implement them just yet - is only going to paint the contest in a favorable light. And no, saying "Alright FINE, we miiight discuss a solution but even that won't make you happy, will it???" does not count as being open to the idea.

You claim that you're NOT anti-accessibility, but your attitude and actions are showing the opposite. You have this chance to extend some grace and empathy, to show you care about making your show enjoyable for everyone, but instead you've chosen to be rude and defensive and turn people off of the contest as a whole. You want people to move on? You're gonna get your way.

As of right now, how you've responded to these threads - plus your discord anti-mask tirade from last year - has already labeled Sakura-Con's AMV Contest as ableist and put you on the boycott list for many editors in our community. And, yes, since iT's mOoT uNleSs yOu'Re a fInAliSt, these are people who have been in finals, winners, and even some regular attendees.

As someone who has actively worked to generate support for Sakura-Con's contest for over a decade and is finding it increasingly more difficult to justify, it's very disappointing.


-


Adding my two cents on the topic as a whole:

I'm wondering:

• Does outright banning an accessibility feature like subtitles break any accessibility laws (in the US or elsewhere)?

• If anyone's been to contests/run contests that allowed editor-created subtitles, were there complaints about the subs, and that's what created rules discouraging or banning them?

• Would anyone strongly appreciate subtitled AMVs at cons? (I know I would!)

Hi, fellow captioner! Ok, I'm technically a video editor but I do CC regularly for my clients. One of which is a law firm and I've captioned at least a dozen webinars specifically about ADA compliance, including captioning. I'm not a lawyer, but from what I've learned, captioning is not required at these sorts of live events. I couldn't find anything on anime cons specifically, but one example I found was Comic-Con, who does not provide captions (and points out that the FCC and ADA don't require it), but they DO provide ASL interpreters for all large events and for other panels upon request.

That said, events can still get sued and forced by courts to add captioning. Sporting events with jumbotrons are close-ish to AMV contest venues, here's a few cases, but the one that strikes me as the most relevant was involving the Washington Commanders since it was specifically about how much knowing the lyrics to music enhances the overall experience:

Whatever the poetic merit of the lyrics and their relevance to the sport of football, we agree with the district court that the music played over the public address system during [Commanders] home games is part of the football game experience … and that the [Americans with Disabilities Act] requires full and equal access to the music lyrics.

The court acknowledged that lyrics to songs played at sports venues may well be ridiculous, citing the lyrics to “Half-Time Mix.” (“Y’all don’t really want it but the young got time / With a flow so spec like ... technologic // Shawty get loose, baby do what you do, let me see you let down your hair.”)

Music played during a football game arouses enthusiasm and fosters a sense of shared participation. The lyrics may be nonsensical, as defendants point out, but even nonsensical lyrics may enhance the environment of collective excitement that defendants provide as part of their goods and services. By having access to the lyrics, plaintiffs have the opportunity to participate in the communal entertainment experience.

The legality of AMVs is dicey to begin with, so any legal heat would probably end with the contest shutting down, to be honest. Boy, it sure seems like allowing captions would be a great way to avoid that.


For the second question, I actually have an old video that includes subtitles that I considered necessary for understanding the original story that the video tells (which diverges from the anime, and I didn't have the tools to do voice acting like I originally wanted). I sent it to about a dozen cons where it made finals - including a French con where the coordinator translated the subtitles for me, it won awards at about half those, including an Audience Best in Show. So, no, I don't think the subtitles caused an issue for the judges OR audiences.

Some people did go look for the video online afterwards because they weren't able to read the subtitles at the con. Kinda funny in a "whaddayagonnado" way, but at the contest I attended, my view was obstructed by the cosplayers in front of me so I couldn't read them either.

Most people didn't even comment on the subtitles at all, though. Do I wish that they could have been read better? Yes, but I figured at least some people could see them, which is better than nothing. Do I think the subtitles gave it an unfair advantage? Not any more than seeing an AMV with an anime that you know vs one you don't. It's just adding context.

I once had the delightful opportunity to judge and attend an AMV contest in Finland - important to note, I do not speak Finnish! I don't know if the entrants created them, or if the contest coordinators did, but they provided me with text documents with English translations for every video with Finnish music so I could understand what was going on in the videos. Without it, could I kinda tell what was going on based on visual storytelling? Sure, but knowing the lyrics added a dimension of enjoyment that otherwise wouldn't be there. And I would have been totally lost when it came to the trailer and comedy categories, which are very lyrically dependent (something noted by deaf/hard of hearing editors in this thread, as well).

I personally always watch everything with subtitles on when I'm at home. At a con, how much I appreciate them would depend on if I could actually read them (which is partially because I have degrading vision due to glaucoma and it can get very blurry in dark rooms), but it doesn't mean I can't appreciate that OTHER people are benefiting from them.

Thankfully, most AMV contests allow you to send videos with text that you added yourself. Those that don't will just be missing out on your videos and your support.

[Yuusharo]

Hey everyone, Jason aka 'Yuusharo' here. I'm an AMV Contest Coordinator for Anime Los Angeles and am currently serving as one of the co-coordinators for Sakura-Con. I felt it was important to chime in here since this discussion began with our event thread.

Thank you to everyone who shared your feedback with us regarding this topic. One thing that has been illuminating for me since the start of this discussion is how passionate this community is for being as inclusive and welcoming to all people of various talents, experience, and physical affordances and abilities. I genuinely had no idea that so many AMVs I've had the pleasure to host at my events over the years were made by folks who are either deaf or hard of hearing. I recognize a lot of names here, and I continue to be incredibly impressed by the level of skill this community brings to the table.

You all rock.

With respect to Sakura-Con, thank you for conveying your feelings and arguments regarding captioning of the AMV Contest. Right now, our team is hard at work preparing the entries to be sent to the judges. Once sent out, we will be turning our attention to other various significant preparations for the convention next month, which includes coordinating our events in the AMV Theater, preparing the ballot designs to be printed and shipped, commissioning (voluntarily) this year's AMV Contest Intro, and of course building the motion graphics for the AMV Contest. We have a lot in store for all of you this year. I hope you enjoy what we put together, and I hope you have a chance to meet some of our new staffers and team members this year.

Due to time and personnel restraints, as well as other internal factors, we will proceed to showcase this year's AMV Contest as we had originally planned and discussed prior with the team. As a result, we are unable to address the topic of captions for this year's show. The amount of technical coordination required with multiple external parties, as well as a general lack of knowledge or experience in captioning an event like this from anyone on our team, myself included, would make it infeasible for us to change plans at this time. In addition, a concern was raised internally regarding visually modifying any entry sent to us for the purpose of adding captions without first asking for consent from all entrants. I realize most people here would likely be okay with having their entries captioned, but speaking for myself, I do not feel comfortable proceeding to do so and just assume that is true for everyone. I believe AMV creators should be informed of this at the time of submission, and they can decide to submit their entries with full disclosure and consent, or decide to withhold their entry if they chose to do so.

Finally, with respect to our rules regarding what we deem as "No Distractions," specifically Rule 9c, I have signaled my intent to the team to revisit this rule after 2024's show has concluded. While it would be unfair for me to speak on behalf of the team before we've all had an opportunity to have a formal discussion about it, I will say, speaking for myself, that my metrics for an AMV Contest rule are measured on how effective it is at fostering creativity and maintaining a level field for all entries for the purpose of judging for a contest. If a rule is successful in achieving those goals, it's a good rule. If it does not, then it is worth reconsidering or reworking.

The community has made it clear to me, if nothing else, that it is worth opening a dialogue and re-evaluating our position on this.

We currently have no plans regarding future events that we are ready to share at this time. However, we hear you, we're listening, and we will continue to discuss internally how we can look to improve the AMV Contest and how to move forward as a team with the community. I encourage you all to continue to share your feedback with us, both publicly and in private. While we may not respond directly to individual feedback, we do read all of it, and we welcome constructive criticism from the community.

We're not perfect, and we make mistakes. How we have approached these concerns by the community in the past few days as a team falls short of my own personal standards of professionalism and excellence.

For that, to MarshmallowGoop and to the rest of the community, speaking from me personally, I am sorry. I let you down this time.

We are learning from this experience, and I hope you will grant us the opportunity to do better towards this community.

At the end of the day, we are showcasing your AMVs. You entrust us with your talent and works, and we will continue to work hard to earn your trust and maintain the standard we've set for ourselves to make what we believe is the best show we know how to put on for you all.

Thank you, everyone. Hope to hear from you soon.

-Yuu

[MagicDarkLight]

Hello, good points were made and subtitles are undoubtedly a valid accessibility option to enjoy AMVs at conventions.

I'm currently part of AMV France staff hosting contests like Japan Expo in Paris. While editors' subtitles have traditionally been allowed in our contests as long as they were used for the concept or adding relevant context, I just wanted to share that we will improve how rules are presented to explicitly state accessibility subtitles are also allowed. Preferred solution in that case would indeed always be soft subs as I do believe hard subs imply a specific artistic modification of the entry which should be owned by the participant and taken into consideration while judging (but still allowed).

Thank you for raising your voice! I hope for a global improvement in those topics in the future.

[Zeonic Freak]

I've always looked at AMV's as a whole that whatever we make should be seen and shared by everyone, and I'd hate to let someone with a disability not to enjoy my content. I do have ideas for say trailers in the future where id use text on my video but as a "spice" because I could start doing movie trailers of films from other countries for my amv trailers. That worked well with SIlk Legopunk Brickrunners trailer.

Some people act like there isn't some work around to addings subtitles on videos. Does it bother me personally, no. I grew up reading CC on TV as a kid (as a substitute excuse for "reading" since my teachers would hound about me watching too much TV and not reading, solved that problem! ) so it doesn't bother me to read subs on anime shows.

I think its crazy that these cons with these big screens can't have an area for people to see CC on videos for them to understand them. Lets say it cant be shown at the contest, what if there was an area or room that had the videos with subtitles for people with these disabilities to view? Surely as big as a con like Sakura could spare some resource or a panel room to showcase this. Maybe commit a panel room/time for people with disabilities to view the videos after the contest? I know its putting on a little more work on the staff but im sure there's some fisability to make something work.

Instead of people saying something can't be done, try and see if it could be done just for the heck of it. If anything, the people who have disabilities might just have to take it upon themselves to do a panel at a con for people who are HoH for them to enjoy their videos. When you want something done right, you're gonna have to do it yourself. Maybe make that its own contest, i'd gladly make a video with subs on it for something like that, because i'd want people to see my work and enjoy it.

Well thats all I got.

[Yuusharo]

I think its crazy that these cons with these big screens can't have an area for people to see CC on videos for them to understand them. Lets say it cant be shown at the contest, what if there was an area or room that had the videos with subtitles for people with these disabilities to view? Surely as big as a con like Sakura could spare some resource or a panel room to showcase this. Maybe commit a panel room/time for people with disabilities to view the videos after the contest? I know its putting on a little more work on the staff but im sure there's some fisability to make something work.

I can share some insight on that. One of our directors actually reached out to us and offered us support for the idea and was willing to accommodate whatever physical or technical needs would be necessary to pull this off at the AMV Contest. They even offered to caption the entire contest themselves, as our team currently lacks a general workflow on how to accomplish that. We ultimately decided that, while extremely generous, the logistics required to pull that off are too much for our team to take on this close to show. It is definitely something I'm going to discuss with them afterwards to explore what options are available in the future. No plans to announce right now of course, but it is something I'm looking into.

With regards to space, we do indeed have a large venue, but we also have a lot of competition for that space. The most realistic option available to us for any programming or panels is in our own AMV Theater, which we're fortunate enough to have earned. That leaves us with the challenge of what to actually schedule in that room. We could schedule 3 hours for an encore replay of the contest, but that is also 3 hours we cannot allocate to any other programming. Is there enough interest in an encore to justify the space, or can we fill more seats with alternative programming? Would the convention allocate a separate programming room just for a special screening of a contest that a few dozen people may attend, or could they fit a guest of honor in there and fill all the remaining seats?

None of this is insurmountable, of course. This is to highlight all the challenges and considerations we would have to solve.

Fortunately, we do already schedule an encore playback of the contest during the weekend. So the question becomes how do we present the contest during that encore? Do we include captions? How would captions be formatted? Would we overlay them on top of the video, or shrink each video into a pillar box with captions below them? Again, nothing insurmountable, and definitely worthy of a discussion. I would love to hear how other conventions have solved these challenges.

Instead of people saying something can't be done, try and see if it could be done just for the heck of it. If anything, the people who have disabilities might just have to take it upon themselves to do a panel at a con for people who are HoH for them to enjoy their videos. When you want something done right, you're gonna have to do it yourself. Maybe make that its own contest, i'd gladly make a video with subs on it for something like that, because i'd want people to see my work and enjoy it.

I think that would be a fascinating idea for a panel of HoH and deaf AMV creators to share their stories of how they approach the craft and to showcase some of their videos. As I mentioned earlier, I genuinely had no idea so many familiar names I've watched over the years are HoH. As a fan, I am greatly interested in their stories and would love to find a way to make that happen.

If anyone is interested in hosting or organizing something like that, or if you have another idea for a panel you'd like us to consider, please get in touch at amv@sakuracon.org. Our schedule for this year is unfortunately already locked, but we would definitely like more suggestions and feedback if anyone is willing to share with us.

[MarshmallowGoop]

Returning to this thread to find such supportive, reassuring, and exciting responses is an amazing feeling. Thank you, Ileia, for bringing such good, relevant examples to the table, for sharing your personal experiences, for standing up for the cause (and me). Thank you, Yuusharo, for your thoughtful, considerate replies and your dedication to keep the concerns brought up in this thread in mind. Thank you, MagicDarkLight, for listening and working to improve rules at your contests. And thank you, Zeonic Freak, for supporting the idea!

I don't think I really have anything to add at this point—just that this is so incredible. That there was even a thought at all to have a captioned event for Sakura-Con next month is beyond my wildest dreams!

I'm really glad I made this thread. Thank you all.

[kitten1987]

Back in the day when I was a AMV Coordinator I never had issues with fan-made subtitles. I’m also disabled and love the idea of making a video more accessible to the audience.