viable alt to huffyuv

[the Black Monarch]

From where I'm standing, Nick and NME are the ones picking on others... Mad Hatter is just stating 99% truth (although I doubt that MPEG1 has any kind of advantage over MPEG4)

[The_Mad_Hatter]

From where I'm standing, Nick and NME are the ones picking on others... Mad Hatter is just stating 99% truth (although I doubt that MPEG1 has any kind of advantage over MPEG4)

Well the MPEG-1 versus MPEG-4 is certainly debatable. The way I look at it is that you should encode with whatever codec you think works best FOR YOU. In the benchmarking I've done and for my needs, I find MPEG-1 is vastly superior to MPEG-4. But, that certainly isn't going to be true for every encoder out there.

[NicholasDWolfwood]

What kind of system are you on?

Personally I would suggest, if you've got the space, rip from the VOB files and make HUFFY encodes. Then use TMPGEnc to convert the HUFFY encodes into MPEG-1. Uh, make sure you deinterlace though if you need to. An MPEG-4 codec would also be fine...if you don't mind poorer playback and having to either pay money or have your system molested with spyware and adware....it will also look better at bit rates below 500kbps (although the vast majority of experts in the video encoding field will claim 720~750).

I'm not sure what you mean by "poor quality", because really you should be able to achieve "good quality" with jsut about any codec. I mean it doesn't matter if you're using MPEG-1, 2, 4, etc. You can encode with like 4,000kbps on any of those and just about any resolution you like. I'm wondering if part of your expectations are being skewed by what resolution you're using. Are you using something like 352x240 or something more along the lines of 640x480?

Erm...you're stupid. Seriously.

DVD (YV12) -> HuffYUV (YUY2) -> MPEG-1 (YUY2) -> Premiere (RGB)

Wayyy too many colourspace conversions, bud.

And that's going to be a problem in...what way exactly? I dunno, maybe you're just special and unlike most of us who can only see 5 to 7 million colors you can somehow magically see more than that...then again maybe you're the one whose stupid...seriously. Colorspace conversion is gonna very little if any affect on the overall quality of the video.

Plus, there's no point in resizing down to 640x480 unless you want a true computer 4:3 aspect instead of TV 4:3 (computer 3:2) aspect.

I was just giving ball park figures, Stupid. I just wanted to know if he was using a resolution somewhere close to 352x240 or something a lot higher like 640x480. I DID NOT say he SHOULD use 640x480.

Hahahahahaha. As far as I know, which anybody can verify this for me, colourspace conversions affect the video quality quite a bit. Also, it doesn't look crappy to the human eye, but if you analize it, it will look crappy after several reconversions (DVD to HuffYUV to MPEG-1, etc).

On the subject of ball park figures, "Are you using something like 352x240 or something more along the lines of 640x480?"

That, to me, basically says "Are you using a crappy res or a mediocre res?"

[The_Mad_Hatter]

Hahahahahaha. As far as I know,

You don't. Please, try and provide even a SINGLE reference to what you're trying to claim.

which anybody can verify this for me,

Except you, you just make stuff up apparently and expect other people to defend it for you.

colourspace conversions affect the video quality quite a bit. Also, it doesn't look crappy to the human eye, but if you analize it, it will look crappy after several reconversions (DVD to HuffYUV to MPEG-1, etc).

Actually the color quality depends almost ENTRIELY on the TYPE and ACCURACY of the colorspace conversion. A lot of programs will let you sacrifice the quality of the conversion process for speed and vice versa. Colorspace conversion really doesn't take all that much processing power compared to other stuff though.

On the subject of ball park figures, "Are you using something like 352x240 or something more along the lines of 640x480?"

That, to me, basically says "Are you using a crappy res or a mediocre res?"

Why is it that you think 640x480 is a "mediocre" resolution? I mean, when you watch video in full screen mode on yer monitor, it's never gonna get any better than 640x480 (some other video players will let you set the full screen mode res higher, but WMP isn't one of them). Maybe it just skipped you, but last I checked the NTSC standard only had 480 lines of visible vertical resolution. o_O

[dokidoki]

My SmoothIQ filter has a RGB->YIQ->RGB integer conversion. I ran it over some source multiple times with diameter 3, threshhold 1.
http://www.doki.ca/conv/
conv00.bmp - Original
conv05.bmp - 5 times
conv10.bmp - 10 times
conv20.bmp - 20 times

The image gets a little darker and some of the colours diverge. I have a floating-point version of the filter and there was less colour divergence, but the blues lost their saturation. <shrug>

[RadicalEd0]

You know the funniest realization to come from this thread? Nick and Hatter are on the exact same mental level. Nick is 11. Hatter looks like he's 35 and act's like he's 12, so averaging those I'd guess 24.
There are a few differences. Hatter speaks eloquently, nick dosent. Nick knows wtf he's talking about, hatter makes a bunch of stupid and unreferenced generalizations.
But you don't need me to tell you how sad of a story hatter is

Personally I would suggest, if you've got the space, rip from the VOB files and make HUFFY encodes. Then use TMPGEnc to convert the HUFFY encodes into MPEG-1. Uh, make sure you deinterlace though if you need to. An MPEG-4 codec would also be fine...if you don't mind poorer playback and having to either pay money or have your system molested with spyware and adware....it will also look better at bit rates below 500kbps (although the vast majority of experts in the video encoding field will claim 720~750).

will get back to this in a sec

DVD (YV12) -> HuffYUV (YUY2) -> MPEG-1 (YUY2) -> Premiere (RGB)

actually DVD-video (YV12) -> Huffyuv (YUY2 or RGB) -> TMPG (RGB) -> Mpeg 1 (YV12) -> Premiere (RGB) -> any distro codec (YV12)

That's 6 colorspace conversions max, 4 min.

and holy god is there a lot wrong with that method.
Where to begin. Well, howabout Huffyuv.

Personally I would suggest, if you've got the space, rip from the VOB files and make HUFFY encodes.

Why the hell waste all that hdd space when you could just go straight from the vob to tmpg through avisynth. But that's another issue - just some stupidity that snuck in. The real question would be..

Then use TMPGEnc to convert the HUFFY encodes into MPEG-1.

why encode to mpeg 1 at all. Chrissakes, you'd think after being told so many times you people would get it. At the very least, use mjpeg. It's a pretty grandiose show of stupidity to encode an mpeg 1 at 4 mbps to edit with (tho the 'experts' as well as the people who created the fucken standard say that it is only optimized in the 1 - 1.5 mpbs range and above there mpeg 2 will outperform) when you could create a same sized mjpeg that won't be a pain in the ass to edit (for you and your editing software).
Furthermore, tmpg converts all input to RGB24 before encoding, thus fitting in another nice and unneeded yuv > rgb > yuv conversion.

Uh, make sure you deinterlace though if you need to.

Deinterlace? Good idea. IVTC? Even better idea! IVTC before converting to huffyuv and thus saving 6 megabytes per second of video? Now you've got it!

An MPEG-4 codec would also be fine...if you don't mind poorer playback and having to either pay money or have your system molested with spyware and adware....

poorer playback in what respect? Last I remember it was DivX 3.11 that could be played back pristine on a 200mhz system. Pay money? Spyware or adware? Maybe if you're like hatter and can't figure out anything besides divx 5 yes. Though, the adware in XviD, 3ivX, DivX 3.11, DivX 5 free, dicas, and ffvfw/ffmpeg must be pretty damn sneaky! So sneaky in fact, that it dosent exist. Oh snap

it will also look better at bit rates below 500kbps (although the vast majority of experts in the video encoding field will claim 720~750).

Nothing looks good below 500kbps (except realmedia ). Pls cite some of the vast amount of experts who set 720 - 750 as the limit where mpeg 4 loses it's advantage over Mpeg 1.

Btw, some info. Mpeg 1 is optimized for 22x15 macroblocks at bitrates of around 1.5 mbps. Mpeg 2 is optimized for 44x30 and above macroblocks and at bitrates above 1.5 - 2 mbps. Mpeg 4 originally was to be optimized for 11x9 macroblocks at bitrates between 50 and 300 kbps but soon expanded to cover the entire range of bitrates and resolutions, scaling up to something like 4000x4000 max resolution and some odd gbps for one of the higher profiles (this is all from memory mind you).

Now about colorspace conversions.

Here we have a nice test img.
The img converted to yv12
The img converted to yuy2
the img converted to yv12, back to rgb, then back to yv12 again.
yv12 -> yuy2 -> rgb -> yv12 -> rgb -> yv12
Here we have it converted from rgb to yv12 and back 2 times
4 times
8 times
16 times
Here we have it converted to yuy2 and then from yuy2 to yv12 and back 2 times
4 times
8 times
16 times
here we have it converted from rgb to yuy2 and back 2 times
4 times
8 times
16 times.

conversions in avisynth 2.51
As you can see, the conversions have quite an impact especially on pure colors. Though the biggest impact happens on initial rgb -> yuv, pretty large differences exist between that and re-converted files.

[AbsoluteDestiny]

Thank you.

[RadicalEd0]

btw, in response to the original topic I have gone to the trouble of writing a full blown huffyuv source preparation guide for n00bs

http://www.geocities.com/radicaled0/guide.txt

[kmv]

http://www.geocities.com/radicaled0/guide.txt

err... That is a JPG image you have there, not a text file. You might want to rename it.

[RadicalEd0]

nono, tis the way of the geocities image hosting loophole