i love rap

borpii · Post by **borpii** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:05 pm

Were you telling me to chill? I thought I was a bit calmer than most... Guess my strong opinionated typing comes off as ranting.

Excuse moi, peeps.

FoolThemAll · Post by **FoolThemAll** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:19 pm

Just for the record, I wasn't saying that most rap is objectively bad. I was saying that I simply dislike most rap.

Personally, I don't see much point in trying to judge music objectively. The subjective part of music is too important in my mind, and I don't think you can get a full measure of a song's quality without taking into account the subjective; objective observances are only part of it. And it's not like political systems or economic policies. It isn't the end of the world if a plurality hold The Beatles to be inferior to Britney Spears. Show me proof that being a diehard J-Lo fan causes harm, and I'll agree that there's a need for us to know/show for a fact that "Paint It Black" is better than "I'm Real".

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:15 pm

Thanks to the latest two posters for a drop of reason in this conversation

Of course objective judgement of music is useless! It's all based on perception, and as you may have noticed - perception is subjective. Unless you're someone like Serpico, but we know what happens to such people

borpii · Post by **borpii** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:28 pm

Otohiko wrote:Ok, chill.

Rap, personally, I attribute more to poetry than to music. Really, because it is.

Real music - please don't mess with that definition. Look in my profile to see why (that's been there since I joined).

Questions:

1) What is a real instrument?

2) What is nu-metal?

3) What is music?

My current answers...

1) Anything that produces sound when manipulated by a human

2) Let's just say that if it's what I think it means, I'd be addressing people who DON'T like it in most unpleasant terms.

3) Arrangment of sounds in time.

I was responding to this so I wasn't totally dropping the reason, just adding to my last post.

Nonagon · Post by **Nonagon** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 9:21 am

Otohiko wrote:Thanks to the latest two posters for a drop of reason in this conversation

Of course objective judgement of music is useless! It's all based on perception, and as you may have noticed - perception is subjective. Unless you're someone like Serpico, but we know what happens to such people

For one, there's no such things as "objective judgement". It's an oxymoron.

Anyway, subjective debates can arrive at an objective conclusion. Stating that a debate is subjective does not mean it can't be reasonible concluded with objectivity. You just need people who are willing to cast away their personal beliefs while the debate is in session, which I don't expect any of you to do here.

Say the topic is God's existance. Now, something as irrational as a higher being that looks over us and judges us is nearly insane, but it is one of the more subjective debates out there for it's strict religious backing. The ancient Greek's debate this forever, and it still goes on ( obviously ), but they debated it without embarging on one another and never brought their own personal beliefs into it.

If we were to objectively debate music, you can't throw in your own tastes, but tell us WHY it's the most talented or complex, and why everyone should think so. Casting aside personal opinions. Why are the lyrics so thoughtworthy and meaningful, compare them to famous poets. Bring in theory, the music is talented because the constant variation in time signatures is hard to pull of well and keep a steady flow in the song. Why is something creative, ( yes, creative ) prove how he/she may have merged two styles or how the structure is based off some form of natural poetry that no one's ever brought forth.

Avoid words such as: good, bad, garbage, etc. etc.

And there you go. Always back up your arguement with objective reason.
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Though, I've never seen anyone cast of their opinion for the outcome of objectivity. At least on this message board anyway.

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 12:43 pm

I'm hardly interested in what people listen to. I'm more interested in their reasons for listening to it. So, if you listen to rap because you relate well to the social situations brought up in the lyrics - I'd have nothing against you.

As far as my definition of real music, or talented music if you will - music that is played with intention, music that is played at a sufficient (note: not neccesarily high) technical level, music that is intellegent in nature. I find bringing in empirical measures kind of useless.

But if you go by what you're suggesting -

the music is talented because the constant variation in time signatures is hard to pull of well and keep a steady flow in the song. Why is something creative, ( yes, creative ) prove how he/she may have merged two styles or how the structure is based off some form of natural poetry that no one's ever brought forth.

then the choices for the title of the greatest band in the universe are pretty darn limited... But it's a fact that most people are hardly interested in complex or unusual music.

***

Erm... anyways. How the heck did we get to this from a discussion of Rap?

paizuri · Post by **paizuri** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:04 pm

I listen to music that is played within my range of hearing.

Nonagon · Post by **Nonagon** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:05 pm

Otohiko wrote:As far as my definition of real music, or talented music if you will - music that is played with intention, music that is played at a sufficient (note: not neccesarily high) technical level, music that is intellegent in nature. I find bringing in empirical measures kind of useless.

Great response, that's just what I was wanting to hear.

But if you go by what you're suggesting -

the music is talented because the constant variation in time signatures is hard to pull of well and keep a steady flow in the song. Why is something creative, ( yes, creative ) prove how he/she may have merged two styles or how the structure is based off some form of natural poetry that no one's ever brought forth.
then the choices for the title of the greatest band in the universe are pretty darn limited... But it's a fact that most people are hardly interested in complex or unusual music.

Yeah, it will be limited, but when you enter a debate like that you shouldn't have your mind on what band will be the greatest, but what data you have to have to arrive at such a conclusion.

I find that a lot of people like complex music, but yeah, most people don't. A lot of people like complex music, but don't have the knowledge to know that it's complex. Like Rush ; ) Haha, any unusual music...yeah...no one really likes that, in the states at least.

Erm... anyways. How the heck did we get to this from a discussion of Rap?

All good debates digress ; )
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In the end, el_farlo makes me want to hurl myself off a 20 story building because his thoughts are so limited. He can't think outside the box at all.

borpii · Post by **borpii** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:42 pm

Huh?????????

Too many words....

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:08 pm

Here's a bit of concrete evidence: a study conducted in Britain concluded that 90% of people aren't really receptive to music. Meaning that, as paizuri said, they listen to music that is within their range of hearing, and don't at all care what it is, or how complex or challenging it may be - they don't mind it as long as it's pleasant to the ear.

There really are artist who have complex music that's accessible to most people. Rush, I'd say, is definitely one of them.

As for the unusual artists - really, the reason they have such limited appeal is because well - they sound too strange, annoying or scary to most ears. Often, that's almost the only difference. There is, however, a fanbase for such music - even in America. That, most certainly, includes me

And just to go back to topic for a sec -

Huh?????????
Too many words....

Hey, you're the Rap guy! Isn't that what rap music is all about?

- all those words... I'm an instrumental kinda guy, so don't look at me