Hatter vs. Tab: The Codec Grudge Match [SPLIT]

Zarxrax · Post by **Zarxrax** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:53 pm

Wtf is a binary group? I'm not sure where ogm is popular, but I sure never seen it used anywhere except by no-name fansub groups :p

trythil · Post by **trythil** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:01 pm

Zarxrax wrote:Wtf is a binary group?

Well, I guess you could call a binary group a group in which no element of the underlying set can have no more than two possible forms.

NicholasDWolfwood · Post by **NicholasDWolfwood** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:12 pm

Toriyama's World, Matt.

They use something besides OGM or AVI...MP4.

MP4 and Matroska are the standards now. OGM is a hacked Directshow container that holds video and audo and shit and is nothing more than a Vorbis Media container that some moron hacked up.

OGM, is the same thing as XviD or Matroska or MP4 in your opinion, Matt, a hack.

DivX 3.11 was a hack on the old Microsoft MPEG-4 v1 codec, Matt.

XviD is opensource and people are continually modifing it...because it's liscensed under the GPL under "XVID". IE xvid.org. Ever heard of it? They develop it. They MADE XviD. Not some stupid ass monopoly company like Sigma Designs or Microsoft or DivX Networks.

Tab. · Post by **Tab.** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:24 pm

Well since the Mods so desire, I guess I'll do an encore presentation.

First of all, let's go back into what the whole argument is about. I said ogm was dead because it's technically defunct. You said it's not because people still use it.

When I say a format is dead, I mean it has no future. You'll be lucky if Tobias and Xiph can work things out so that the parsers for theora and tarkin can handle the old ogm streams that 'everyone's using'. Ogm was a tossed together unsupported hack of the ogg format xiph created to store vorbis streams.
Just because any idiot can go look at some guide for oggmux, vdubmod, or ogmtools (all created by doom9 members) right now, and many do, doesn't mean the format is going to last. The fact that you base all your know-how on shit you pirate off of fansub groups is laughable. I'm not much for the fansubbing scene, mostly because every subber I've ever met was a total moron when it comes to encoding.

Since you're so intent on arguing the semantics of hacking, I recommend a dictionary. Hacking can be defined either as modifying a program to do something it's not intended to, or skillfully adding to and developing a program. Obviously DivX 3.11 and Ogm follow definition 1, XviD, as well as nearly any opensource software follows definition 2. If you want to consider that hacking, then the mpeg 4 spec itself is a hack, since it's built in such a way that allows for gradual additions to the standard based on new technology.

And it's funny to think you assume my viewpoints have anything to do with doom9. A lot of the people on doom support ogm. You don't see any of the hundreds of test encodes I have taking up all 140gb some of this HDD being 'produced' because they're not amvs. They're encodes. Unlike you, I bother to understand what I'm doing myself instead of relying on what some half-witted group of divx 5 lackeys thinks is the easiest way to get their crap encodes out. I find it amusing how you still waste your time trying to talk down to me when you couldn't so much as find your tail when it came to that mpeg 4 file I sent you back in April

And for the record, the footage in Forever was nothing to cream up the rug over. Both it and that preview of ROD had some weird ass resizing that left a grid of squares all over, and the grain from what looks like shitty mpeg 2 encoding didn't help. The randomly deinterlaced scenes in Forever weren't too exciting, nor were those nasty black lines on every side of ROD.

As a final note, I guess you forgot Tobias was a member of the same ass-end group of nothings. You're so cute when you contradict yourself out of ignorance like that Matty. LoL DOOM9 R NAOBS BET OGM FORXLR.>!LOLRITE!@?>end.

Corran · Post by **Corran** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:42 pm

Zarxrax wrote:Wtf is a binary group? I'm not sure where ogm is popular, but I sure never seen it used anywhere except by no-name fansub groups :p

A binary group is a newsgroup that serves binary files such as mp3, avi, etc... I think this is what s/he? is refering to...

Onideus_Mad_Hatter · Post by **Onideus_Mad_Hatter** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:33 pm

Tab. wrote:Well since the Mods so desire, I guess I'll do an encore presentation.

Yeah cause apparently you didn't look foolish enough in the first place.

First of all, let's go back into what the whole argument is about. I said ogm was dead because it's technically defunct. You said it's not because people still use it.

It's technically defunct, huh? Double clicks on his .ogm copy of Kiki's Delivery Service...right clicks, switches to English...switches back to japanese...switches off the subtitles...hrmmm...seems to work pretty good for me. Maybe those old biddies on Doom9 just haven't quite figured out how to get it to work yet. Let me guess, they're still using Windows Media Player 9 as their player of choice. *snicker*

When I say a format is dead, I mean it has no future. You'll be lucky if Tobias and Xiph can work things out so that the parsers for theora and tarkin can handle the old ogm streams that 'everyone's using'. Ogm was a tossed together unsupported hack of the ogg format xiph created to store vorbis streams.

One which has been since refined, not of course by any work from Tobias. Have you checked out the KaZaA Lite codec pack? Install it, associate .ogm files with BSPlayer, BOOM, flawless playback. The ONLY people who hate .ogm are the people who haven't figured out how to get it to work (and given how it was originally implemented by Tobias, yeah I can certainly see why) or by people, like Tobias, who has this idiotic Microsoft mentality about integration. It's all like, "OOOooo, let's include some fagish little menu support, we can pretend to be like Quicktime, FLASH, and all the other DVD capable feature rips offs!"

Free cl00, OGM does what it needs to do and it does it fine. Hence the reason everyone is using it.

Just because any idiot can go look at some guide for oggmux, vdubmod, or ogmtools (all created by doom9 members) right now, and many do, doesn't mean the format is going to last.

Maybe not, but currently, it *IS* the best choice, it gets the job done, and it's supported in the K-Lite Codec pack. Now if all those all biddies at Doom9 wanna actually get off their asses and DO something, like oh I dunno, actually FINISH a project, and then put together a codec pack and get the kind of distribution factor that K-lite's got, hey, that'd all be great. But if there's one thing people online generally hate, it's changing around all the formats and having to download 6 or 8 new half assed supported codecs.

The fact that you base all your know-how on shit you pirate off of fansub groups is laughable.

Really, how so? I mean the fansub groups, in case it just skipped yer dumbass, is where most of the material for AMVs is coming from. Oh and I know some of you like to deny it, you like to claim yer rippin from your own DVDs, but anyone with an extensive media collection who has an eye for encoding quality/style knows you're full of shit.

I'm not much for the fansubbing scene, mostly because every subber I've ever met was a total moron when it comes to encoding.

Well hey, despite what you might think about them, THEY ACTUALLY ENCODE, you don't. And yes, I've seen quite a few subbing groups where they do some strange things as far as encoding, but they are STILL the ones who are encoding, YOU AREN'T. Again I go back to the VHS vs BETA example. Yes, BETA is superior, and maybe if some people, like Doom9, had gotten off their asses and actually learned that creating a standard was more than just pretty lil 0s and 1s on a flickering light, VHS would have dropped off the face of the planet. Oh, but then that's not how it worked out, huh? OGM might eventually be replaced by something else, but lemme let you in on a lil secret Diddums, it's not gonna be some half assed backward encoding wet dream called MCF.

Since you're so intent on arguing the semantics of hacking, I recommend a dictionary. Hacking can be defined either as modifying a program to do something it's not intended to, or skillfully adding to and developing a program.

o_O

Is that really from a dictionary? Cause uh, it's sounds just like the definition of hacking I used to throw around quite a bit a decade or so back in alt.2600.

Obviously DivX 3.11 and Ogm follow definition 1,

Not DivX 3.11, the program was FULLY capable of encoding at such bit rates, it was WELL within the specs. Basically the version of MPEG-4 it was ripped off from simply had a restriction on it that didn't allow it to encode outside of certain bit rates. If you wanna call it cracking, I'll buy that, but it's not hacking. If you think otherwise why don't you come on down to alt.2600 sometime, we can have a lil debate about it. `, )

And it's funny to think you assume my viewpoints have anything to do with doom9. A lot of the people on doom support ogm. You don't see any of the hundreds of test encodes I have taking up all 140gb some of this HDD being 'produced' because they're not amvs. They're encodes. Unlike you, I bother to understand what I'm doing myself instead of relying on what some half-witted group of divx 5 lackeys thinks is the easiest way to get their crap encodes out.

If you spend all your time searching for perfection, you'll never actually get anything done. See that's the lesson that just skipped you. I mean it's not like SD-6 was rippin HDTV signals off C-band sat and doing 800mb SVCD encodes right off the get go, no, they were puttin out some pretty shitty encodes when they first started up, but the difference is that they learned the best method by actually producing results, where as someone like you spends all your time in a constant frenzy searching for "the best" without actually getting anything done.

I find it amusing how you still waste your time trying to talk down to me when you couldn't so much as find your tail when it came to that mpeg 4 file I sent you back in April

Oh you mean the one you had encoded with some backwards lil ass crack of an Xvid encode? I'm all like, "What build of XVid is it?" And you're like, "Duh uh...I dunno, I gots it off teh Doom9 yo, kickazz!!!1!!".

And for the record, the footage in Forever was nothing to cream up the rug over.

I said my LATEST AMV, that would be Twist Of, not Forever.

Both it and that preview of ROD had some weird ass resizing that left a grid of squares all over, and the grain from what looks like shitty mpeg 2 encoding didn't help. The randomly deinterlaced scenes in Forever weren't too exciting, nor were those nasty black lines on every side of ROD.

Yeah cause that ROD preview, I spent a whole 3 and a half minutes to slap that together. See, there's just another example of you, so constantly striving for perfection that you don't ever produce anything.

And gee, I see you STILL haven't comented on Twist Of, did that one just skip you?

As a final note, I guess you forgot Tobias was a member of the same ass-end group of nothings. You're so cute when you contradict yourself out of ignorance like that Matty. LoL DOOM9 R NAOBS BET OGM FORXLR.>!LOLRITE!@?>end.

Oh I never said Tobias didn't create OGM, but he certainly didn't put it into active practice, that credit goes to peeps like the guys who put together the K-lite codec pack. The peeps who took his underdeveloped shit and turned it into something practical. I mean John Henry certainly didn't invent the automobile, but he was the first person to make it practical. Tobias has never made ANYTHING practical, all he's done is do half ass work that someone else had to pick up and make practical.

Onideus_Mad_Hatter · Post by **Onideus_Mad_Hatter** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:39 pm

Henry Ford, not John Henry, sorry about that, my bad. ^_^

Zarxrax · Post by **Zarxrax** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:47 pm

K-lite codec pack?
OMGNOOB ROTFLMAO!!!!1

Eheh, had to get that out of my system

Onideus_Mad_Hatter · Post by **Onideus_Mad_Hatter** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:57 pm

NicholasDWolfwood wrote:Toriyama's World, Matt.

They use something besides OGM or AVI...MP4.

*golf clap* Woo hoo, someone was able to name one! No surprise it wasn't Tab. Now then, should I do something really funny and list like 10 encoding groups that DO use OGM for every ONE that you can list that doesn't? `, )

MP4 and Matroska are the standards now.

According to who? Honestly, I can never understand why some people have such a hard time comprehending that standards are less about what people think SHOULD BE standard, and what is actually being USED as the standard. I mean yEnc is about as far from standard as you can get and yet, gee, it's being used in just about every multi-part binary group imaginable. Hrmmm...

OGM is a hacked Directshow container that holds video and audo and shit and is nothing more than a Vorbis Media container that some moron hacked up.

Yes, Tobias really is a moron, I'll admit that. But other people took his idiocy and turned it into something which is now practical. Maybe not perfect, but trust me, MP4 and Matroska aren't gonna be replacing it anytime in the immediate future. And why would they? I mean, what does MP4 and Matroska do that OGM can't?

DivX 3.11 was a hack on the old Microsoft MPEG-4 v1 codec, Matt.

It wasn't a hack, if you wanna call it a crack, I'll buy that, but they are two very different things.

XviD is opensource and people are continually modifing it...because it's liscensed under the GPL under "XVID". IE xvid.org. Ever heard of it? They develop it. They MADE XviD. Not some stupid ass monopoly company like Sigma Designs or Microsoft or DivX Networks.

Which makes it a VERY poor codec to use. I mean, seriously, just how many builds of XVid are there floating out there now? I mean it just keeps gettin sillier and sillier. The very idea of an open source video codec is just the height of stupid, at least as far as public distribution of media goes.

Onideus_Mad_Hatter · Post by **Onideus_Mad_Hatter** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:59 pm

Zarxrax wrote:K-lite codec pack?
OMGNOOB ROTFLMAO!!!!1

Eheh, had to get that out of my system

As laughable as it might sound, if you've got a codec, say a build of XVid, and it's not in there, 90% of computer users don't have it. It's all about distribution and "marketing" so to speak. Something no one at Doom9 has got.