Hatter vs. Tab: The Codec Grudge Match [SPLIT]

[Tab.]

it's pointless to argue with a hardcore relativist

But it's so fun to watch them bullshit everything

[Zarxrax]

Damn I had to leave for a couple hours and lost out on half the action. Oh well... lets jump back in right where i left off.

Just wanna jump into the fray here. Sounds like you guys are having a blast.

You keep saying all these people release shit in ogm. Why don't I ever see anything in OGM? I have maybe 100 fansubs sitting on my pc right now. Not a single one is OGM. I have like 1 ogm file on my pc... a hentai...

I've got quite a bit of stuff. Kinda various and random though. I've got Cat Girl Nuku Nuku in OGM. Tenchi Muyo and Tenchi Universe. Kiki's Delivery Service. E's Otherwise. Ranma 1/2 OAVs. The list goes on and on and more are being done with OGM every day. If you search for bit torrents and ogm you can get a pretty good idea of just how much the format is increasing in popularity, especially since it's playback was made so easy through the release of the k-lite codec pack.

Oh, you mean those groups that release dvd-rips so you don't have to go through the trouble of buying it. Yea, so maybe they do use OGM, I don't really follow that scene. But since when do only the people making pirated stuff decide on whats a standard?

You ask what matroska can offer that OGM doesnt? I'll name some things. Granted, most of the feature list is not implemented yet.

And no offense, but probably won't ever be.

Variable framerate support. This is IMO, the killer app for this format. Nearly every anime these days has mixed 23.976 and 29.97 fps scenes. No longer will people have to choose one, and let part of the anime look weird, or resort to crap techiques like encoding the files at 120fps.

I don't see that as being relevant even in the least bit. I mean if you're looking for perfection like that you should just be straight copying the DVDs or distributing the .vob files online.

And when did anyone ever say anything about ripping dvds? You know, people encode things besides DVD rips, dont you? And even if I was ripping a dvd, the you seem to be missing the whole point of data compression. Why wouldn't I just give someone the vob files? Cause they are freaking huge. You're saying I shouldn't try to get the best quality I can out of something eh? Well why not? Apparently you are one of those people that don't give a shit about quality, I suppose.

Aspect Ratio Correction. Use it just like dvds do.

See above.

Menu support. Nuff said.

Again, the same thing, if you needed to have menu support, variable frame rates, aspect ratio correction, etc, etc, etc, you should just be straight ripping the DVDs, not reencoding the damn thing in XVid so you can try and save a couple hundred megabytes of space.

And again, I never said anything about ripping DVDs in the first place.

File attatchments. Allows for attatching things like translation notes, or anything else that may be of importance.

Which, in case it hasn't dawned on anybody could be a HUGE security risk. And considering the skill level of a lot of these "programmers" like Tobias, they're basically making targets just waiting to happen.

I fail to see where this is any more a security risk than it is to place files inside of a zip or rar file. Oh my god, someone can attatch a virus or some shit into the video! Like they can't do the same thing with every other file container curtrently available? Please rethink your argument here, or state some fact as to how this is actually a security risk.

CRC32 stuff. I don't know exactly what this is, but as I understand it, the file will be able to tell you whether it is corrupted or not.

Irrelavent, since it's already covered through the distribution medium (bit torrents or rar files)

Not irrelevent. Not everyone distributes across bittorrent and in rar files. Again, the world is not limited to your little warez scene.

And as far as becoming standard... Matroska is on it's way to having support in hardware players. Can you say that for OGM?

What hardware players? And why on earth would ANYONE want that (besides people doing "illegal" things)? I mean that's why we have the DVD format. And the DVD format won't be replaced by Matroska because Matroska doesn't have shit as far as security features like DVD has. Trust me, that's the LAST thing hardware manufacturers are going to want to start including, because their business is directly dependant on the movie and television studios who CHOOSE to release their material for playback on their devices (ie using the DVD format).

Why would they put matroska support on hardware players? Because people want it of course. The same reason they put Divx in AVI support on hardware players. If you think the hardware manufacturers care if you pirate or not, you are sadly mistaken. All the hardware manufacturers want to do is sell you there system. If they can sell it by allowing you to pirate whatever, they will gladly do it, aside from maybe companies that are directly tied in with the studios.

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

Sorry about the dely, I was carving a pumpkin. See my horribly disturbing onipumpkin!

Ah Matt, just as NME predicted. You see, your habit is pretty predictable. You drop into these little communities and run around acting like an idiot, until someone challenges or insults you. Then you get upset.

Oh yeah, look it's me, upset.

...

-_-

NMEamv (8:01:18 PM): he's such a happy little retard
NMEamv (8:01:36 PM): he'll snap soon though
NMEamv (8:01:42 PM): someone will rub him the wrong way
NMEamv (8:01:48 PM): and he'll fill his little diaper
NMEamv (8:02:00 PM): and throw a hissy fit

Well it's nice to see you've had to start resorting to such 3rd grade vulagarity, however in this case, since I am quite right about everything I've said, I've no need to take it to that level.

Matt, do you have any clue how retarded you sound right now? Really?

I'm sorry, are you just going to throw around accusations or are you going to try and prove something?

I mean, you went from basing your 'argument' on backwards fansub groups to codec packs.

Where did I ever mention fansub groups? I know I mentioned encoding groups, however these are not the people you're talking about. Usually fansubbing groups have this code of morals and ethics and only believe in releasing crappy quality encodes and paying money for the DVDs when it gets licensed. Those aren't the groups I'm talking about. I'm talkin about the uber evul nasti pirating groups out there who wait until a series *IS* licensed and THEN they start doing high quality rips.

Are you begging to look like a moron?

Jumping sure is a lot of fun you know...especially when there's a conclusion.

...

anytime now...

Maybe you need someone to teach you about handling multimedia on your computer, but really, you don't have to persecute yourself that much to get a reaction You could just ask like any respectable n00b would.

still waiting...

Well, Matty, looks as if you need a dictionary again. Defunct. Look it up. I really don't know how to simplify it more for you.

I'm sure you had a point in mind somewhere...well, maybe not.

Refined? K-lite refined anything? free cl00, cupcake, *snicker*, HELLO I'M NOT REPETETIVE, K-lite uses 0.9.9.6, tobias left off at .5, and 'n00bs' on doom did the rest.

And here you were just trying to claim that it was defunct. Of course if that was true, why would there be a .6? Hrmmm...I'm seein plot holes the size of Tripoli here.

Hey, free cl00, cupcake, ... wait
I don't encode?
oh

No, you don't PRODCUE, there's a difference. You can encode all you like, if you don't produce anything that's in circulation, you're nothing. You're like an unpublished author, a starving artists who can't get anyone to take 3 minutes to look at his work.

I seem to remember you having an issue with understanding DivX 3.11 back in April. Apparently you haven't gotten over that little mental block yet.

At some point in all this you really are going to produce a coherent counter argument to ANYTHING I've said...right?

LOL Matthew the concept you fail to realize here is called a standards body. Xvid had nothing to do with it. If you go back and look at that file, you have no way of knowing whether it was encoded with xvid, divx 5, 3ivx, quicktime, ffmpeg. You don't seem to have the abstract reasoning abilities necessary to grasp a standard like Mpeg 4. Come back and argue when you've hit formal operational Matty.

Wow, it's you, backpedaling. How does ANYTHING you just babbled prove that I'm wrong? No, really.

And no way of knowing what it was encoded with...uh, you know they've got this program called G-Spot...been around for quite sometime. Really, look into it. o_O

Oh shit, I must have missed it. Forever is your masterpiece of lipsynching wonder anyway, so I'd think you'd have given it the awesome quality it deserves.

The source footage for Forever isn't as good as the source footage I used for Twist Of.

Your arguments about 'looking for perfect quality is useless' is meaningless.

I'm glad you think just saying so magically makes it come true.

I don't need to produce.

I'm happy you think that, but then whether you like it or not, people are judging you and whether you produce or not, for many people, is a very important deciding factor in whether you actually know what you're talking about.

I already told you, I couldn't give a rat's ass about the online anime piracy business. It's bullshit.

Well you just remember that as you download AMVs, cause the vast majority of them were all made with downloaded material from people like me.

Yet again, produce or not, I actually understand this shit. Unlike 99% of the idiots out there doing your encodes who pick up GKnot and press a few buttons. I'm interested in the theory, not letting pricks on usenet get their daily highs off of some short skirted 12 year old.

Like I said, you're so fixated on perfection that you've lost sight of the whole point of it all. And no, it's not skirted 12 year olds. I'm sure you have the ability to spot an error in video as well as any hard core audiophile can spot even the slightest twinge or fluctation in the harmony of a song...but like them, you just don't get it. If you spend all your time nitpicking over split second irrelevancies you aren't actually WATCHING the video.

Christ, you sound like some moron they pulled off the street to advertise k-lite.

K-lite doesn't need advertising, it's free.

Two points I suggest you go figure out; DivX 3, and Mpeg 4 in general. You have no grasp and no understanding of what the two are, and yet you throw them in amidst your meaningless banter and start spouting shit that makes no sense in the context you attempt to apply it.

And yet more baseless accusation from you. WHAT specifically have I said in this thread PROVES that I don't know about MPEG-4? So far you have yet to produce even a SINGLE argument to counter what I've said...nothing... *shrugs*

Do you think anyone hasn't noticed? o_O

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

Not to mention the bitrate limitations of mpeg2 streams burned onto CD (due to the cd reading speed of most set top players being low).

...um...you do understand that the DVD format *IS* an MPEG-2 stream, right? o_O

WHOOSH

Yeah maybe if you're trying to play DVDs and SVCDs on your Sony Playstation, Kid. Otherwise what AD said REALLY doesn't make any sense.

[jonmartensen]

It's funny because just 4 years ago

First the good news: You can buy an SVCD player and use it for whatever you like.
Now the bad news:

NO SOFTWARE ENCODERS EXIST FOR MPEG2. The ones that do produce very crappy quality movies. YOU NEED HARDWARE THAT STILL COSTS ABOUT $500 OR MORE.

No one really knows the standard for SVCD yet. Sure burn some MPEG2 clips on there but lots of luck getting them to play. Also why would you want to use three or more disks for an hour's worth of movies? The high bitrate is not going to help the quality. I am sure you might want to make your own but having to get up at most four times for regular VCD is enough but to get up ten times to watch a two hour movie? Better to go to DVD.

Now we have new standards, codecs, and decoders that do what SVCD couldn't (keep high quallity video while lowering the file size) and people are scared of the move to the new format.

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

My experience with Twist Of.

1. Upon download, I instinctively open up wmp6.4.

You're using Windows Media Player? *shakes head* Boy this really just keeps gettin better and better.

My screen is blessed with the retarded size of SVCD,

Yeah it's too bad the people who made the SVCD standard didn't have you around to tell them how to do it, I mean, you know EVERYTHING after all, huh?

and I remember I have to watch this garbage in PowerDVD

*nearly chokes in laughter*

or some media player where I'll have to correct the AR myself.

Well you could always upgrade to WMP9, or use the hacked up version of WMP Classic. I mean, if you REALLY wanna use WMP.

Mental note: never release AMVs in SVCD, 99% of viewers will stop before here.

Which I'm sure is the reason why my star stats read like 5, 5, 1, 1, 5, 1, 5... and average out to 3, but then I figure if someone doesn't even have enough sense to download the K-lite codec pack and have a decent media player installed on their computer, or at the very least the ability to burn it as an SVCD and watch it on their DVD player...well then they probably just shouldn't bother. I'm not looking to cater to ignorance.

2. I'm treated to all kinds of shitty on the fly resizing algorithms, that eventually lead me to give up reviewing the vid's 'quality' using any method that would give me a half-normal AR. I go back to mp6.4

*shakes head*

3. Finally able to see the video clearly I revel in it's AWESOME interlacing,

Um, it's actually not interlaced, Dear. The original did have some deinterlacing artifacts, however I went through by hand and fixed every single one in my AMV.

mosquito noise,

Only a slight bit in the intro and only if you've got your head glued 2 inches from the screen.

rainbowing,

Oh really? No offense, but maybe you need a better MPEG-2 decoder. Do you even KNOW what an MPEG-2 decoder you're using? I would suggest Ligos and do make sure you have the overlay mixer turned on. Might also wanna get yourself a REAL media player, not one that was outdated like 5 years ago.

Side note - for some reason the vid is reapeating itself or something, cause I keep seeing the same scenes over and over.

Only one scene, during the chorus, repeats and it's done for a specific effect. See, this is why you don't make AMVs.

4. Curious, I check out the headers to see exactly what made this monument of SVCD ugliness. Ah, TMPG with the default settings as to be expected.

It was made with TMPGEnc, but then why woud I use anything else, it *IS* the fasted MPEG encoder there is. And uh, I did not use the default settings when I encoded it either.

I guess it's no coincidence that you support SVCD so much and never seemed to know wtf you were talking about when it came to Mpeg 4, you just refuse to admit that you've no clue what you're doing.

Uh huh, more baseless accusations, and considering the source produces nothing, has some outdated version of WMP installed on his system, probably doesn't know what MPEG-2 decoder he's using, AND on top of all that watches AMVs without audio... o_O

Yeah...

I mean, why else would you encode your shit to msmpeg4v2?

The only stuff I ever did in msmpeg4 was like low quality preview and teaser clips and then the reason I used it was for convienence, don't have to actually alter any settings. You see Tab., some of us are actually more interested in the CONTENT of the video. You obviously don't understand though, so I won't try explaining it

Why else would you have no grasp on why divx 3 was hacked and how it works?

Tab. thinks hacking is being able to operate a hex editor...*snicker*...oh that's prime .sig material right there. Too bad we're not on Usenet, I can think of about half a dozen hacking newsgroups that would get a real kick out of that one.

Why else would you have no clue what an mpeg 4 systems stream is? Why would you do mass encodes in DivX 5.02?

Well gee, DivX 5.02 has been around for quite some time now, doesn't seem to be going anywhere, they must be doing SOMETHING right. Maybe they should have consulted with you first though, the great and wonderful OZ of video encoding.

Ah yes, I remember. Back when I was a n00b, and all I knew were TMPG's default settings. Back when I did produce XCD rips in OGM with DivX 5.

It's ok Matty, we're all "stoopid" at some point. You know, that stage where you think you know anything, but really don't. Back when we were too egocentric to step down and realize that we don't know shit. What was it called..? Oh.. childhood I think?

Wow...irony. o_O

Saddest thing is, I'm some 8 years younger than you, you poor, delusional wad of net backwash

I hope calling me names hopes you to think you're right, I'm kinda through trying to enlighten you about things you've actively chosen not to involve yourself in. A person can spend their whole life studying the game of say basketball...but that's no substitute for actually PLAYING the game. Maybe when you get as OLD as I am...heh, you might understand that.

[Dannywilson]

Matt, think about it like this: your average dvd rom has a read speed of 16x. Your average set top player has a speed of lets say 8x. If the 16x can handle a data rate of an arbitrary number, lets say 6000 (Its just a number, not an actual data rate quote) then therefor the 8x set top could handle a data rate of 3000. If you want a absolutly beautiful-true-to-life encode, lets say the data rate for the video and audio streams are a combined 5000. You burn this DVD, forgetting your set top limitations. It would play just fine on your computer throught the DVD-ROM, but when you tried to play it on your set top, it would skip and error as the hardware tried to keep up with the data rate of the video and audio. You understand now?

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

It's funny because just 4 years ago

First the good news: You can buy an SVCD player and use it for whatever you like.
Now the bad news:

NO SOFTWARE ENCODERS EXIST FOR MPEG2. The ones that do produce very crappy quality movies. YOU NEED HARDWARE THAT STILL COSTS ABOUT $500 OR MORE.

No one really knows the standard for SVCD yet. Sure burn some MPEG2 clips on there but lots of luck getting them to play. Also why would you want to use three or more disks for an hour's worth of movies? The high bitrate is not going to help the quality. I am sure you might want to make your own but having to get up at most four times for regular VCD is enough but to get up ten times to watch a two hour movie? Better to go to DVD.

Now we have new standards, codecs, and decoders that do what SVCD couldn't (keep high quallity video while lowering the file size) and people are scared of the move to the new format.

They're not scared to move to a new format, it's all about control. TV show and movie producers DO NOT WANT these new formats. Why? Simple, they don't have as much control over them, they don't have as much security as formats like DVD, and thus, it's easier for pirates to steal and distribute their media for free. And since the movie makers in essence control the DVD industry and in turn DVD player manufacturers, they can choose to force them into adhering to certain standards and skipping others.

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

Matt, think about it like this: your average dvd rom has a read speed of 16x. Your average set top player has a speed of lets say 8x. If the 16x can handle a data rate of an arbitrary number, lets say 6000 (Its just a number, not an actual data rate quote) then therefor the 8x set top could handle a data rate of 3000. If you want a absolutly beautiful-true-to-life encode, lets say the data rate for the video and audio streams are a combined 5000. You burn this DVD, forgetting your set top limitations. It would play just fine on your computer throught the DVD-ROM, but when you tried to play it on your set top, it would skip and error as the hardware tried to keep up with the data rate of the video and audio. You understand now?

The only way it could be a problem is if you're burning XSVCDs. Most all set top players that I've dealt with can handle the max bit rate of an SVCD burned on standard 700mb CD, hence the reason they say "SVCD compatible" on the box. If it's only VCD compatible and you're burning an SVCD, it probably will still be able to play, but then it might have frame skipping because it can't handle the higher bit rate on the data CD.

[inanitydishamen]

Such a pity that both SVCD and CVD were both standards established in China to fight off the hordes of DVD's springing up in 1998, somehow the Chinese government needs to have absolute control of media (communism) so they tried to resort to a format of MPEG2 video, burnable on a CD, which could be read by the slow CD-ROM pickups of most VCD players, it was only a matter of picking a standard.

Good call China, you've given us VCD and SVCD, the worst methods for distributing video content in the world, not supported by any people in a legitimate business, and really stupid.

Remember, when you support SVCD, you're supporting COMMUNISM.