Who's Better Kenshin or Shishio in the Bakumatsu?

Savia · Post by **Savia** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:29 pm

I think you're both arguing the same side of the argument, but using different words

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:42 pm

Suzuki_Akira wrote:Why can't I admit it? I just don't agree, that's just my opinion. I know the point of the show, but I interpret it differently. I think that Kenshin WAS the strongest because he had something noble to fight for, something worth protecting, rather than just strength for it's own sake. it's like the Kamiya Kasshin Ryu-it by its nature is not allowed to fail, because it's supposed to protect.

Strength is a physical characteristic. What you are describing is motivations and will. It is quite apparent that Shishio, Soujirou, Enishi and Hiko are all substantially *stronger* and more skilled than Kenshin.

Who said the strongest always wins?

Who says the strongest is always right (the premise of the ENTIRE Kyoto Arc)?

To say Kenshin won because he is the strongest is to pretty much say that Shishio was right all along.

Again, take a good look at those episodes and you'll see Kenshin getting his ass kicked time and time again.

He beat Soujirou because of a mental breakdown and Soujirou underestimating Kenshin (which you could say is his weakness). He could've easiliy killed Kenshin in his first move with Shuku-Chi. You must remember that Kenshin's entire technique is based on prediction and emotions. How can he beat someone with no emotions? He can't predict...bam first move dead. He needs at least 2 for him to even think of a counter.

He beat Shishio because the source of Shishio's unfathomable strength is ultimately his weakness (a good way to develop a villain mind you). In episode...60 I think, you see Shishio at his ultimate potential (prior to him dying) and it's quite apparent that Kenshin can barely even block his attack. The stones even come up and Kenshin is seen struggling to even block the blow. We already saw that Kenshin at his peak couldn't beat Shishio (even with his succession technique and the leaves snapping). It took Shishio to beat Shishio. Had the fight continued, Kenshin would've been dead. Kenshin even admits after he is stabbed (Yumi's death) that Shishio is just too strong and even thinks about giving up.

And I already know people will go "but Kenshin was using a reverse-blade and if he hit once, Shishio would've died." And I can ultimately counter it with, had any of his enemies fought at their full potential as well, Kenshin would never have even hit them. It's quite apparent that Shishio isn't even trying in the beginning and still bites, blows things up and stabs Kenshin.

I still don't see why people can't just accept that their favorite character isn't the strongest. That's not the point of the show and if he were, it'd defeat the purpose of it. You need a weaker character to have an interesting show. It'd be stupid if he was stronger than everyone (and very boring). Like if Hiko did the whole thing, it'd be over in like 1 episode

.

InSaNe KeYbLaDeR · Post by **InSaNe KeYbLaDeR** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:34 pm

YOU GO TELL THEM SEMPAI!!!!!! Personally, I think Sojouro or whatever his name is can kill anybody but...That's just because I'm obsessed over him like I am over Aoshi. Mmmmmmm Aoshi.....

Shun · Post by **Shun** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:14 pm

[quote="dwchang]

Strength is a physical characteristic. What you are describing is motivations and will. It is quite apparent that Shishio, Soujirou, Enishi and Hiko are all substantially *stronger* and more skilled than Kenshin.

Who said the strongest always wins?

Who says the strongest is always right (the premise of the ENTIRE Kyoto Arc)?

[/quote]

Yup, thats what i was trying to say in my previous posts. If Kenshin was the strongest it would taint the entire theme of the conclusion, whish is why, adleast to me, it seemed they made it quite obvious that he wasnt.

I think that what many arnt realising is that by changing one thing such as the fact if kenshin didnt have a reverse blade sword, you have to look at the bigger picture and see how that would of effected the entire series. For one if kenshin continued to be a manslayer he would of had the same downfall as Shishio (Shot and burned).

If you guys honestly believe that Kenshin is the strongest character in the series than i am highly doubting if you even watched the same show.

dbzrkyyh · Post by **dbzrkyyh** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 9:21 pm

ok heres what i think if it were kenshin fighting as a manslayer theresa chance that he'd win because he's at his youth and the skills that he has leaned are at there peak but at that time kenshin was basically a puppet he had no real point in living he didnd realy care wut happend . but in reality hiko says the will to live is essential witch allows kenshin to learn the final attack and defeat shishio

Suzuki_Akira · Post by **Suzuki_Akira** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:33 pm

Strength, yes, Hiko, Shishio, and maybe Soujirou had the one up, physically. But I assumed that strongest meant "best fighter", which would mean who beats who. The strongest guy wins. Simple as that. But there are different kinds of strength that determins who wins. But I never said anything about the strongest person being RIGHT. That's what you put in my mouth for an easy rebuff. If someone's strength is their weakness, their "fighting prowess" takes a bit of a hit, IMO. Pure strength, I'd say Shishio trumps all of them. Pure skill, I'd say Hiko trumps all of em. Pure will and mental stability, its of course Kenshin. But when it comes down to fighting, there's never someone who has a good enough combo of the three to have beaten Kenshin. THAT is what I'm saying. Its obvious that-right before he immolated himself-Shishio's kenki was the strongest in the world, but a mere block by Kenshin saved him from sure death. Will does, in some cases, translate to not strength, but accomplishment. But in the end, what is the difference?

In4ser · Post by **In4ser** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:33 am

Depends...was this b4 Shishio was 'assasinated' or before when they were fightining in the Bakumatsu (Correct me if I'm wrong, they tried to assinate Shishio during the Bakumatsu?) After well I don't know, Kenshin beserk, Shishio (probably no hidden techniques, he needs time to make them up) would lose. Before, well he get's his toughness and power from his heat...more heat he has supposedly he get more powerful...poweroverwhelming...so probably Kenshin

In4ser · Post by **In4ser** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:48 am

Savia wrote:
Vincent17601 wrote:

Sasuke would dominate over anyone else.
There you go ^-^

*SPOILER*

WRONG!!!

There you go! ^_^ In case you didn't know this person is not Sasuke, he is reason to be alive, so he can kill him, unfortunately for Sasuke, he defeated Kakashi by just looking at him, Literally and mindraping him and Orochimaru admits he is stronger than him, he his Sasuke's older brother, Uchiha Itachi

*SPOILER*

Kracus · Post by **Kracus** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:20 am

Suzuki_Akira wrote:Strength, yes, Hiko, Shishio, and maybe Soujirou had the one up, physically. But I assumed that strongest meant "best fighter", which would mean who beats who. The strongest guy wins. Simple as that. But there are different kinds of strength that determins who wins. But I never said anything about the strongest person being RIGHT. That's what you put in my mouth for an easy rebuff. If someone's strength is their weakness, their "fighting prowess" takes a bit of a hit, IMO. Pure strength, I'd say Shishio trumps all of them. Pure skill, I'd say Hiko trumps all of em. Pure will and mental stability, its of course Kenshin. But when it comes down to fighting, there's never someone who has a good enough combo of the three to have beaten Kenshin. THAT is what I'm saying. Its obvious that-right before he immolated himself-Shishio's kenki was the strongest in the world, but a mere block by Kenshin saved him from sure death. Will does, in some cases, translate to not strength, but accomplishment. But in the end, what is the difference?

Not to pick on your words, but Hiko had Will and Mental Stability and Strength. (Soujiro is the fastest). Hiko pointed out that Kenshin was not mentally stable. Kenshin never actually beat hiko, hiko allowed kenshin to hit him.

Kenshin didn't believe in himself enough to realize the will to live is all he needs, again Hiko points this out. That is why kenshin stands up to block Shishio's attack. Kenshin didn't win the fight or beat shishio, Shishio burned himself out. The point of the hero in this story, that gets overshadowed by his amazing abilities and history, is that when the time comes will the hero stand up and resist. Take example Link from Legend of Zelda, its not all the weapons he has that helps him win, its courage to stand up and fight. Yahiko has the same will and spirit as Kenshin in my mind. When kenshin was giving his little talk to himself as he laid bleeding to death, and he says a new generation of fighters will rise up against him, I thought Yahiko in my mind. Not because then he'll be strong enough, but ready to stand up to Shishio. Kenshin stood up after Aoshi attack, Kenshin stood his ground as Soujiro disappeared and the sound of feet pounding the ground filled the air, Kenshin stood up after being bit by Shishio, Kenshin stood up and prepared to attack after a man stronger and bigger than him stood after receiving kenshin's 2nd strongest attack (that soujiro was fast enough to dodge).

Shishio also had a strong will and mental stability, otherwise he wouldn't have the skill he has nor done all he had did before his death. Shishio didn't fall after receiving a 3 hit combo from kenshin, he stood up after getting hit by kenshin square in the forehead, he stood up after being hit by the stronger part of kenshin's succession technique (an act none beforehand could do)

Suzuki_Akira · Post by **Suzuki_Akira** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:15 pm

They are swordsmen. They ALL have a strong will, or they wouldn't be as great as they are. I was using Hiko as an example, Kenshin is not, I think, better than Hiko at all. But better overall than everyone else? Sure. It was said in the anime itself, "Nothing is stronger than the will to live." Not only did Kenshin have an incredible amount of that, but he also had a great amount of love, for those he wished to protect, and this gave him the strength to overcome all the odds he faced.