Why are dubs automatically given the shaft? (mini-rant)

dokool · Post by **dokool** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 2:14 am

So this evening, I returned from Best Buy with a stack of DVDs, including FMP vol 6, Evangelion: Resurrection (and I only watched one ep, because the first thing I watched was the 20-min interview about Eva Live Action. One word: squee!), and the first three volumes of Angelic Layer.

Since Angelic Layer was a new show to my collection, the first thing I did was leave a message for someone on my buddy list whom I knew was a big fan of the show, inquiring as to whether or not I should watch it subbed or dubbed. The response?

XXXXXXX: uhm..that's a stupid question
XXXXXXX: what do you think I'm gonna say...dubs are fjcking horrible

Now, I've actually heard the dub of Angelic Layer: ADV previewed the first episode off the Newtype dvd at their Otakon panel, and I didn't find it disagreeable or anything, but that was back in August when it was cool to see a new show on the eve of it's release. However, I only asked this person in the spirit of inquiry, in an attempt to see if perhaps this was the show that changed people's minds about dubbing.

It seems that anime fans have a dual-nature regarding dubs. While at the same time, many are hardcore anti-dub, english voice actors still account for the majority of guests at anime conventions, and there are always lines around the hotel for autographs. Seeing the thousands of girls at Anime Boston squeeing because the Gundam Wing pilots were all united was *scary* at one point.

Now, while I haven't been an anime fan for as long as some fans (roughly a year and a half at this point), even I have found myself switching over from giving dubs a chance to instinctively switching to subtitles. My first two purchased series, Evangelion and Cowboy Bebop, I both watched in dubbed form, and as much as anybody complains about the Eva dub I will only accept Tiffany Grant as Asuka's voice for the remainder of my life. Despite having first seen Lain in digisubs, I watched the dub when I got the DVDs and found it to be good as well. However, I soon migrated over to dubs when I got shows such as FLCL and Excel Saga, both of whom featured characters (namely, Haruko and Excel) who couldn't possibly be translated into english without losing what made them special.

Now, it's not like I'll only watch anime when it's subtitled at this point. I found the Full Metal Panic! dub to be enjoyable, and I had no problems with what I heard when I decided to watch the first couple episodes of Last Exile and Haibane Renmei dubbed, but the question still remains: why, after all these years, is there still a hard line in the sand between the fans of subs and the fans of dubbing? I'm not saying that the latter is automatically right for liking dubs (while I haven't seen Escaflowne, I'm well aware of what Fox did to it), but isn't the former group being harsh? When you consider how much of the actual cost of the DVD goes towards the voice acting, do you automatically want to dismiss that as being worthless and waste your $7.50 or $5 or however much it is? How can you put food on a voice actor's table and steadfastly refuse to enjoy their efforts even once? It sounds like supporting your local music scene by going to a concert wearing earplugs.

I guess what it comes down to is this: Why is the assumption that no matter how much input the licencing companies recieve from fans (and you can't deny that the anime industry has more fan influence than any other entertainment medium on the planet), the quality of dubs isn't improving and furthermore won't improve? Are sub-only fanatics just suffering from Elitist Prick syndrome? Will it ever get better or are people just going to keep bitching about dubs until licencing companies stop paying for them and erase what's become an integral part of the American otaku experience?

I have a feeling I'm going to recieve a lot of flames for this, but I'm honestly curious as to what people's opinions are. It all just seems stupid after looking at everything from a neutral perspective, so perhaps the proponents of both sides (sub and dub) will enlighten me somehow.

-DOKool

Hitori · Post by **Hitori** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 2:35 am

Just depending on who's playing what part.. I like both!

*Monica Rial fan!*

Zarxrax · Post by **Zarxrax** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:40 am

Reasons why I don't watch dubs:

1. The original japanese cast is the "correct" voices as was chosen by the director of the show... thats what the characters are supposed to sound like.

2. The japanese actors often convey emotion much better, in my opinion.

3. The english dialogue often comes across to me sounding rather weird and corny.

4. They often change a lot of things in dubs for no apparent reason. For instance in Princess Mononoke, the line "this soup tastes like water" became "this soup tastes like donkey piss".

5. From the various extras I have watched on dvds about dub recording, the english actors dont even know what the hell is going on in the anime, and they record ALONE, not having the other characters to work with at the same time. All they are doing is reading lines off a script. They ought to at least make them watch the anime before recording, and record together.

Ashyukun · Post by **Ashyukun** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:49 am

I'll probably always watch the shows in their original language if possible- simply because it feels the most right. There are a lot of things that just don't translate well in dubs and are therefore left out of the dubs even in the best efforts to have as 'pure' of a translation as possible. It's also just plain hard to keep the same style of the original characters sometimes. What I generally consider to be one of the best dubs ever made- the Totoro dub- was made so good in my opinion by the fact the younger characters actually sounded the age they were supposed to be.

Dubs have improved a lot just over the time that I've been involved in anime (roughly 10 years). Setting aside things like Robotech and the shows hacked and dubbed for TV back in the 70's and 80's- some of which actually did a good job at their modified stories- dubs in the early 90's were at times downright horrid- both in the capabilities of some of the VAs and in the alleged 'translations' that were used (see: "Trishisms"). However as the companies have refined the art and VAs get more familiar with playing anime parts, the quality has improved considerably. Stealing a line from Doki's 'Switch' ad, "I don't have to cover my ears' when I watch them anymore. While I will always be more comfortable with Asuka's original Japanese VA, I have to give ADV and Tiffany considerable credit for how they handled dubbing her- allowing Tiffany to toss in more German into her speech as opposed to the one instance where she uses it in the original. I'd tend to agree with Zarx's points- though with the exception of the first one (obviously), they have improved considerably over time.

I for one don't really equate being a sub 'purist' with hating dubs- I just happen to like the original track better, just like given the preference between tacos or spaghetti I for dinner I'd choose tacos, but still happily eat spaghetti were it what was served.

OtakuForLife · Post by **OtakuForLife** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:51 am

Those are some good poitn zarxrax ,but I sometimes have the
oppisite problem. Certin series are better in dub, Tenchi OVA
Hellsing, AYA and few others. So, I have a tendicy to buy the
DVD's and watch them both. With Dubs it touch and go, I heard
the Love Hina dub was god awful. However, I'm still very excited
about VIZ trying to dub saikano. But, if they screw it up!! They will be
getting a bit of hate mail from me.

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:49 am

Horrible? Probably not.

My argument is just... well, if you can watch the real thing, why bother with the substitute? Why walk when you can take the bus?

The short answer is, I still see the original as... well, original, and I still vastly prefer Japanese voice acting over American. It just sounds better to me; and that can also be backed up by the fact that Voice Actor is a much more formally-recognized profession in Japan, with actual schools that train professional actors.

So, I'll watch dubs if I have to, but normally I'll just go for what I see as the better choice.

Trident · Post by **Trident** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:23 pm

Most of what I would have said has been stated anyway... I will say, I do watch dubs on occasion, if only out of sheer morbid curiosity. My problem is, whereas most of the voices are tolerable, there will be at least one voice which ruins the series for me. As much as I prefer the Bebop dub, for example, almost every time Ed speaks I still cringe. Or, while I sort of like Miroku's dub and can handle Inu's dub in Inu Yasha, I downright dislike Kagome's valley girl dub. Maybe they actually did a good job with keeping her spirit the way the Japanese would hear Kagome's voice (I don't know any Japanese, and therefore can't catch any dialect differences) but... I dunno... she sounds so much smarter in the original. I give dubs a chance, but in general... subs are preferable.

angelx03 · Post by **angelx03** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:31 pm

OtakuForLife wrote:Those are some good poitn zarxrax ,but I sometimes have the
oppisite problem. Certin series are better in dub, Tenchi OVA
Hellsing, AYA and few others. So, I have a tendicy to buy the
DVD's and watch them both. With Dubs it touch and go, I heard
the Love Hina dub was god awful. However, I'm still very excited
about VIZ trying to dub saikano. But, if they screw it up!! They will be
getting a bit of hate mail from me.

I seriously hope that the Ocean Group DOESN'T let Blue Water Studios to do the dubbing of Saikano. From what I heard, they convey the emotions of the characters (from like Ayashi no Ceres and Crest of the Stars) in a very dull and bland matter.

Yea, there are people who prefer to watch anime in it's "pure" form as what Zarxrax just pointed out. But I feel the English voice actors and actresses really try their hardest to give the most accurate performance they can. Sometimes, as OtakuForLife implied, the English dubs can actually better than the original one like Your Under Arrest OVA. So it all comes down to preference. I'm more inclined for dubs, but I have no problem watching subs.

Alpha_Hazard · Post by **Alpha_Hazard** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:44 pm

The reason dubs are secondary to subs is several fold. I for instance, saw many episodes of bebop, flcl, love hina, and Evangelion as fan subs. In one of the Eva ones strangely enough, the note from Misato at the begining is in english, which I found very strange...because even the ADV version doesn't have that... I found it easier to understand as subtitles, but FLCL is Borderline because they talk so damn fast. I got RahXephon from Netflix this past year and found out though that the voice actors had no clue what was going on (Which I personally think is BS, becuase My roommate got a Bootleg after the second disc was released in America. Anyway, the way dubs are run is often very convoluted.

Dubs do have their charm. THe Donkey Piss part forinstance is just a translation because Neil Gaiman (the guy who created the english script) felt that "water" was just not insulting enough. Also, in Hellsing, I was only slightly aware of the London setting while watching the subtitle version. THe Dub provided me with the neccesary accent to be sure. But theDubs also have drawbacks. In the more lengthy series such as DBZ, Sailor Moon and Teenchi, the voice actors tend to change. One day Goku Sounds like a surfer, the next day he sounds limp wristed.

Truthfully though I will say I often watch with english dubbing and subbing both turned on, because I can zone out as I please if it is my third time watching, but when I want to get the full effect I can read the subtitles. The best of both worlds really. Some DVD's don't allow this though, like Chobits and Noir.

There are many many reasons that people don't like dubs. some of people are just snobs and want to look cool by reading subtitles. Which I don't really have a problem with, but then again, I have a short attention span, so I can't really sit down and read subtitles all the time.

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:50 pm

It's funny that GW fangirls were mentioned - that's the same thing that got me hooked on actually watching dubbed anime. Before that one, I thought the voices sounded silly - even during supposedly deep dramatic parts the voices just sounded...silly. Of course, I hadn't watched many, so I was surely missing the good ones. But that's beside the point.

I prefer Gundam Wing in english. I admit, I haven't watched it in english in a long time (I stopped watching the anime for a good year), and now I enjoy watching it in Japanese for the first time (repeatedly). But if I were going to show this anime to someone, it would be in English. It's the voices - to me (as an english speaker), they have a wider variety than they do in the Japanese version. I may not like the fact that Duo sounds like a hick ninja turtle surfer in the dub, but each of the characters is very distinct - with the Japanese only a few stand out (Quatre as a tenor, Duo as an alto, etc) - the others tend to sound alike to me because I don't know Japanese accents. I prefer the dub - it gives a wider range to the characters for me. But as Trident said - there's always one voice that ruins things - for me it's Relena's dub. Having heard it in Japanese it makes her an entirely different character, so in that respect the dubbed version killed a significant portion of the anime. So there's the good and the bad.

These days I automatically default to the Japanese version. After being limited to dub only, I enjoy it more. And I love the way the language sounds - I find Spanish dubbed movies to be lovely to listen to, Itallian are funny sounding but nicely different - and Japanese is a pleasure to listen to. I just like the language, and that's an added bonus of watching the anime in Japanese. And since I love the way the language sounds, I tend to get very attached to the voice actors - to the point where hearing the english version makes me skitter away - it just doesn't sound right. I hear that and all I can think is "he's not supposed to *sound* like that". Forget the way they change the actual lines in anime, the sound alone - the tone, the little characteristic noises that don't quite translate into english words - all of that makes a character for me. And the english dubs rarely carry that through. Not their fault, they can't reproduce an entirely different language. But it makes me default to Japanese.

[And I *do* support English voice actors. After all, a good portion of anime fans rely on them - the ones who *can't* get the Japanese versions. And if we don't support them, it will always be just a joke - in which case they have no reason to get better and to care about how their talent affects the anime. I may not like the YYH dub, but I'll gladly admit they tried - some of the voice actors reproduce the characters' personalities perfectly even if they sound completely different.]