Hiei or Vegeta
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Daio Kaji
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:29 am
- Location: ..wat goes here now?¿
no, vegeta is not all powerful, it is for the longest time all arrogant, so he calls himself all powerful, though he is extremely powerful and usually second only to goku who just kinda has a gift (along with training from the gods heh heh) he's still not all powerful, is Hiei?
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Arigatomina
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:04 am
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Has anyone who's replied so far in favor of Vegeta actually seen the entire YYH series as well as DBZ?
I keep hearing people talk about Hiei using his dragon on Vegeta. If he were facing someone who matches his speed, possibly beats his physical strength, and who has a resistence to ki attacks (yes, Hiei's black flame *is* a ki attack - it's pure youki combined with makai flame - he says this flat out to Mukuro - it's the power he was born with, his youki - plus the black flame his jagan allows him to control and absorb) - if Hiei were facing him, he would never waste his dragon on him.
He'd use the kokoryuuha on himself like he did with Bui and Sensui. I seriously doubt Vegeta is that much stronger (physically) than Hiei if you base it off of physical attacks they both use in their respective anime. Just like Vegeta's muscles don't weigh him down, Hiei's slight (seemingly sparce) muscles don't mean he isn't physically very powerful. Hiei matches Yusuke in their second fight (right before Sensui) - and that's keeping to purely physical attacks. And we know how resistant Yusuke is to physical attacks - easily as strong as Vegeta.
Now take Hiei and add in what he gets when he uses his dragon on himself. Near immunity to physical attacks. There goes Vegeta's main fighting style. Ability to break a person's shield just by touching him (clash of youki vs reiki in this case since Vegeta seems to use the same ki as humans). Any 'shield' Vegeta used would be worthless - but then, I doubt Vegeta would use a shield. When does he ever use a shield of ki? He doesn't. As for deflecting attacks - that would work fine if Hiei shot a blast at him. But Hiei doesn't shoot blasts. He has *one* youki match with Mukuro where he's just facing off their pure energy - and that was just to show that they were even. It's the only time in the entire series that he used a 'blast'.
No, Hiei wouldn't be shooting fire at Vegeta, so any ability to deflect blasts would also be useless. What does that leave Vegeta? His own blasts. As noted, Hiei doesn't just resist human flame, but makai flame. There is no telling the comparison of heat the two have, but you know makai flame has to be hotter than the earth flame in DBZ - even hotter than the monster Vegeta gets flamed by in the movie with Tapion. And that simple yellow flame was too much for him to 'shield'. I can't see him blocking makai flame if Hiei were to be surrounded in it (like he usually is - unlike Vegeta, Hiei doesn't *need* to block flame - he absorbs it and grows stronger from it - he did since the first time he mastered his dragon and it ceased to burn him).
So it would be down to physical attacks - with Hiei's attacks combined with his black flame and youki (they are inseparable once he absorbs the dragon into himself). And Hiei may not fly, but he certainly jumps and 'floats' in mid air when he uses his dragon the first time - so with the speed difference gone, even Vegeta's ability to fly wouldn't help him. And then think about what Hiei does when he absorbs the dragon. He hits his opponent *as* the dragon. He uses all of that force and flame in physical (but still 'energy' since it surrounds him) attacks.
This isn't a fight you can just say one person would win, certainly not when there is nothing in the DBZ universe to compare to Makai flame. Even if you equate the energies (youki vs reiki) and the speed and physical strengths - you can't put black flame on a scale with any accuracy. And you can't predict the outcome of the fight if you don't know anything about one of the characters and the variety of fighting styles he has.
I know a few people mentioned Hiei's jaou ensatsu ken (black flame sword) and how no sword would be strong enough in the DBZ world. I think these people don't realize that this sword doesn't rely on there *being* an actual blade. Hiei can form that sword out of his combined youki and black flame without having any breakable metal blade inside it. And I really doubt Vegeta could 'break' flame if it were to strike him. Flame is maleable - it doesn't snap like a metal sword. If anything, it bends and flows and surrounds the target if it fails to cut - which can cause just as much damage.
As for me - if Vegeta can stay alive for two hours of fighting with Hiei, he'd win. Don't forget - after Hiei uses his dragon on himself, he has to sleep for up to 6 hours to recover. Vegeta just has to stay alive long enough to kill him in his sleep (though I'd hope he'd be more honorable than that if the fight took place towards the end of the series). And there's no question in my mind that Hiei *would* use his dragon on himself. That more than doubles his energy, his physical strength, and absorbs an attack that makes him - as Kurama puts it - a vessel for that force. Of course he'd go for broke and use it on himself. Hiei is far too smart to waste that youki when it wouldn't do any good. After the Sensui saga he would know better. And he can read reiki better than anyone in YYH - hence his shivering when he saw Sensui's true power, he felt it the strongest since he's pure demon. And saiyajin or not, Vegeta uses ki - human life force energy.
Blegh. Winner? Vegeta. But only if he has the stamina to survive for a few hours and the cowardice to kill Hiei once he passes out. Otherwise, I have no idea - I don't know how black flame equates to the DBZ universe.
I keep hearing people talk about Hiei using his dragon on Vegeta. If he were facing someone who matches his speed, possibly beats his physical strength, and who has a resistence to ki attacks (yes, Hiei's black flame *is* a ki attack - it's pure youki combined with makai flame - he says this flat out to Mukuro - it's the power he was born with, his youki - plus the black flame his jagan allows him to control and absorb) - if Hiei were facing him, he would never waste his dragon on him.
He'd use the kokoryuuha on himself like he did with Bui and Sensui. I seriously doubt Vegeta is that much stronger (physically) than Hiei if you base it off of physical attacks they both use in their respective anime. Just like Vegeta's muscles don't weigh him down, Hiei's slight (seemingly sparce) muscles don't mean he isn't physically very powerful. Hiei matches Yusuke in their second fight (right before Sensui) - and that's keeping to purely physical attacks. And we know how resistant Yusuke is to physical attacks - easily as strong as Vegeta.
Now take Hiei and add in what he gets when he uses his dragon on himself. Near immunity to physical attacks. There goes Vegeta's main fighting style. Ability to break a person's shield just by touching him (clash of youki vs reiki in this case since Vegeta seems to use the same ki as humans). Any 'shield' Vegeta used would be worthless - but then, I doubt Vegeta would use a shield. When does he ever use a shield of ki? He doesn't. As for deflecting attacks - that would work fine if Hiei shot a blast at him. But Hiei doesn't shoot blasts. He has *one* youki match with Mukuro where he's just facing off their pure energy - and that was just to show that they were even. It's the only time in the entire series that he used a 'blast'.
No, Hiei wouldn't be shooting fire at Vegeta, so any ability to deflect blasts would also be useless. What does that leave Vegeta? His own blasts. As noted, Hiei doesn't just resist human flame, but makai flame. There is no telling the comparison of heat the two have, but you know makai flame has to be hotter than the earth flame in DBZ - even hotter than the monster Vegeta gets flamed by in the movie with Tapion. And that simple yellow flame was too much for him to 'shield'. I can't see him blocking makai flame if Hiei were to be surrounded in it (like he usually is - unlike Vegeta, Hiei doesn't *need* to block flame - he absorbs it and grows stronger from it - he did since the first time he mastered his dragon and it ceased to burn him).
So it would be down to physical attacks - with Hiei's attacks combined with his black flame and youki (they are inseparable once he absorbs the dragon into himself). And Hiei may not fly, but he certainly jumps and 'floats' in mid air when he uses his dragon the first time - so with the speed difference gone, even Vegeta's ability to fly wouldn't help him. And then think about what Hiei does when he absorbs the dragon. He hits his opponent *as* the dragon. He uses all of that force and flame in physical (but still 'energy' since it surrounds him) attacks.
This isn't a fight you can just say one person would win, certainly not when there is nothing in the DBZ universe to compare to Makai flame. Even if you equate the energies (youki vs reiki) and the speed and physical strengths - you can't put black flame on a scale with any accuracy. And you can't predict the outcome of the fight if you don't know anything about one of the characters and the variety of fighting styles he has.
I know a few people mentioned Hiei's jaou ensatsu ken (black flame sword) and how no sword would be strong enough in the DBZ world. I think these people don't realize that this sword doesn't rely on there *being* an actual blade. Hiei can form that sword out of his combined youki and black flame without having any breakable metal blade inside it. And I really doubt Vegeta could 'break' flame if it were to strike him. Flame is maleable - it doesn't snap like a metal sword. If anything, it bends and flows and surrounds the target if it fails to cut - which can cause just as much damage.
As for me - if Vegeta can stay alive for two hours of fighting with Hiei, he'd win. Don't forget - after Hiei uses his dragon on himself, he has to sleep for up to 6 hours to recover. Vegeta just has to stay alive long enough to kill him in his sleep (though I'd hope he'd be more honorable than that if the fight took place towards the end of the series). And there's no question in my mind that Hiei *would* use his dragon on himself. That more than doubles his energy, his physical strength, and absorbs an attack that makes him - as Kurama puts it - a vessel for that force. Of course he'd go for broke and use it on himself. Hiei is far too smart to waste that youki when it wouldn't do any good. After the Sensui saga he would know better. And he can read reiki better than anyone in YYH - hence his shivering when he saw Sensui's true power, he felt it the strongest since he's pure demon. And saiyajin or not, Vegeta uses ki - human life force energy.
Blegh. Winner? Vegeta. But only if he has the stamina to survive for a few hours and the cowardice to kill Hiei once he passes out. Otherwise, I have no idea - I don't know how black flame equates to the DBZ universe.
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Nandez
- Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:34 pm
- Location: The CROS
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Arigatomina
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:04 am
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How many times have you seen Vegeta disappear during a fight? I've watched DBZ and I can't think of a single time when he went so fast that he disappeared. Hiei does it every time he fights, sometimes disappearing for nearly a minute (constant rapid speed to the point where he 'blinks' out).Nandez wrote:First of all you dumb dumb fuckers.Hiei and Kurama are not gay.Second Vegeta all da way baby.Would kick Hiei's ass.Hiei has his speed but Vegeta would go so fucking fast Hieie wouldn't know what the fuck was going on.
Compare speed by how it's drawn in anime. When Goku goes super fast (or teleports) he disappears because he's going so fast the camera can't see him. Hiei does the same thing. Vegeta doesn't.
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Daio Kaji
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:29 am
- Location: ..wat goes here now?¿
i think Ari's knowledge of both series proves to us that Hiei is mostly likely the winner of the bout, Vegeta might be able to stand up for the 2 hrs of beatings, but he's a man of honor and pride above all and would never kill a foe in his/her sleep
vegeta does use a shield btw, in that movie you mentioned with tapion (hildegarn being the actual villin, movie 13 i think it was (exploding dragon fist))
but his shield did actually protect him and the people around him, it was a big shield, it stretched to outside the building window, so after having been beaten down by hildegarn and making such a tremendous shield, vegeta was spent, so there's no way to know just how durable a shield around himself would be
too many loose ends to know the ture outcome, but i think Hiei has the advantage now
vegeta does use a shield btw, in that movie you mentioned with tapion (hildegarn being the actual villin, movie 13 i think it was (exploding dragon fist))
but his shield did actually protect him and the people around him, it was a big shield, it stretched to outside the building window, so after having been beaten down by hildegarn and making such a tremendous shield, vegeta was spent, so there's no way to know just how durable a shield around himself would be
too many loose ends to know the ture outcome, but i think Hiei has the advantage now
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OujiVegetasstalker
- Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:59 pm
- Location: *look behind you*
Ohhh kay.....why do i feel as if im out numbered here..*this calls for report of abuse...or gang rape ? lol yea... anyway, yo everyone, just face it, we can not predict what would possibly happen in the end, even if we attempt to be as none biais as possible *i find a few attempting this but most just flat out ignoring that concept* for or against either of the two characters in question, i feel we still vote for our favorite of the two...but i guess thats the way human or woman are 
Now that ive expressed my opinion on that matter...i suggest we get two anime fans *at least two or more would be good* who arent in the least biais in any way for or against Hiei or Vegeta, but have indeed watched both shows and knows what he/she is talking about, to give a none biais, none influenced opinion of just what they see would happen......*resources like that could get pretty damned hard to find, but its the only way to truely seattle the score*
Now that ive expressed my opinion on that matter...i suggest we get two anime fans *at least two or more would be good* who arent in the least biais in any way for or against Hiei or Vegeta, but have indeed watched both shows and knows what he/she is talking about, to give a none biais, none influenced opinion of just what they see would happen......*resources like that could get pretty damned hard to find, but its the only way to truely seattle the score*
"im watching u, in ur dreams and all around"
*takes time out to laugh demonicaly*
*goes back to the shadows from which i came....*
*takes time out to laugh demonicaly*
*goes back to the shadows from which i came....*
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bazanime
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:53 pm
- Location: Behind you. BOO!!!
That is a very impressive assesment Ari. Personaly i havent seen YYH, but all of the CN version of DBZ/GT and first volume of the DB manga.
Seeing all the weaknesses of Vegeta against Hiei, wouldnt you say that vegegta was a wrong match from the DBZ universe?
Thus, who do you think would stand more of a chance against Hiei, taking into account their full abbilities. I am thinking more of Goku, especially in one of his Super Saiyajin incarnations......maybe even after he had absorbed the dragonballs at the end of DBGT and its own obvious powers.
Can you put that data into context for use, alongside Hiei's abilities aformentioned. It would be very interesting.
I think i may have to get a copy of YYH, sound very entertaining and its a fighting anime to boot (if thats the right genre)
Seeing all the weaknesses of Vegeta against Hiei, wouldnt you say that vegegta was a wrong match from the DBZ universe?
Thus, who do you think would stand more of a chance against Hiei, taking into account their full abbilities. I am thinking more of Goku, especially in one of his Super Saiyajin incarnations......maybe even after he had absorbed the dragonballs at the end of DBGT and its own obvious powers.
Can you put that data into context for use, alongside Hiei's abilities aformentioned. It would be very interesting.
I think i may have to get a copy of YYH, sound very entertaining and its a fighting anime to boot (if thats the right genre)
"Victory only clears the way for more battles" - Teddy Rosevelt
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Daio Kaji
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:29 am
- Location: ..wat goes here now?¿
i don't think YYH would be considered a fighting anime, just that the fighting in the anime is done wellbazanime wrote:I think i may have to get a copy of YYH, sound very entertaining and its a fighting anime to boot (if thats the right genre)
from what i've read in the manga and seen animated and from what people say, it seems like it's more of a detective and humanitarian anime... .. okay, that's my opinion and i'm sticking with it
but when you think about it, dbz could be considered a good versus evil anime... but that would just boil down to fighting either way...
okay, let's put it this way, YYH is a solve mystery (detective) anime and it has a sub-catagory of fighting because it's done well and it's necessary for the series to progress..
..that's about all i can do not having seen all of YYHIf you're reading this, you've gone too far...PREPARE FOR RETRIBUTION!!
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Mika Rieu
- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:16 pm
- Location: up down all around @.@
o.o -.- o.o *sweatdrops* well I don't think I should vote at all now that I've read what Ari said.... but I have another question.... well 2 actually. Whose stronger Gohan Goten or Goku? and doesn't Vegeta finally get stronger then Goku at the end of GT? I never followed DBGT and I wasn't really into DBZ. So this is all info i think i might have missinterperted. 