Hiei or Vegeta

[Bebop0083]

Yo,

This is just for fun

- Reality.

that maybe but its the same with all these other versus threads they get way too out of control.

[)v(ajin Koji]

It's getting out of control?

OH NO! NOT THE LONG REASONABLE POSTS BY ARIGATOMYNA!!!!

:¬ \

[Bebop0083]

It's getting out of control?

OH NO! NOT THE LONG REASONABLE POSTS BY ARIGATOMYNA!!!!

:¬ \

lol, i just think that people take versus threads too seriously. though Ari does have a lot of info to back it up. remember what happend in the Kenshin vs Vegeta thread?? uhhhhhh i dont even want to go there.

[)v(ajin Koji]

Remember what happend in the Kenshin vs Vegeta thread?? uhhhhhh i dont even want to go there.

I remember what happened. However, I don't think it's going to happen here any time soon.

[Arigatomina]

I'm just having fun - there isn't any fun in being an anime fan if you aren't allowed to think about what you're watching (or reading in the case of manga). I find it interesting to give serious thought to anime - the same way I would to any piece of fiction that I give a lot of attention to.

And on that note, someone did mention my statement about black flame being unquestionably hotter than DBZ flame. I don't base this off of the anime alone, but simple realism. The color of the flame determines its heat in real life. The hottest flame is blue-white without a trace of yellow. A yellow-red, or golden flame is simply not as hot as a pure flame is. And since the anime artists chose to distinguish makai flame from human flame by changing the color (and then claiming that the color change coincided with a heat difference - the same as in real life), you can take it for a certainty. Whether the flame in DBZ comes from a monster or a human fire, if it's yellow-red like a normal blaze, then it's not going to be as hot as a pure blue-white flame. And since Makai flame is more purple than black (without a trace of yellow or red), you know that is a visible sign of the heat difference.

Now, as for exactly how much hotter that purple/blue-black flame is in comparison to orange DBZ flame, I can't say. There's no way to have a 'certain' comparison. But it would have to be considerably hotter if it doesn't have any of the inpurities you find in a regular red/orange fire. I may not remember the exact properties that make your usual fire orange, but I do know a pure oxygen flame is more likely to have that extreme heat and pure blue-white color, so it's probably the carbondioxide in the 'air' that makes the difference. And Kurama and Hiei both comment on the 'atmosphere' in the Makai and the pressure difference - probably a sign of the difference in oxygen vs. carbon dioxide ratio - which would explain why flame in that realm is automatically more pure and hot than anything found in the human world. Take account of that as well as the pressure (compressed oxygen will burn hotter and with more density than sparce uncompressed and inpure oxygen would), and it all adds up rather well to me, so I take it for granted.

[And yes, that was far more detail than probably needed since people don't like it when others take anime seriously. But I don't make statements without having a reason to back them up - and when I took for granted that people agreed black flame was hotter than orange flame, it was because it seemed obvious to me. Now I see I should have explained my reasoning better, especially since my Fluid Power courses have left me with some general knowledge that now seems to be not so commonly known... I forget sometimes. I'm just so used to putting detailed thought into any 'fiction' I create that I assume others are doing the same when they think about works of fiction. Forgive me if that seems obsessive or 'taking' something too seriously - I find it natural and interesting. ]

[Bebop0083]

like i said before your probably the only person who has info to back up what your saying.

[Bote]

Not one anime universe can be compared to DBZ's guys. Vegeta blows away planets and makes devastating attacks that are equal to the strenght of 1 000 000 regular people(according to Toriyama's power levels). No way any other anime character could beat him. I doubt that Hiei would even beat up Tien or Krillin, let alone Vegeta,

Just because characters in other anime don't go around blowing up planets at random doesn't mean they aren't capable of it. And remember, Vegeta didn't blow up a single planet except when he first showed on the anime. For all his supposed increases in attack power, he didn't show anything that would make it look like he had the capability of destroying a planet. A person who didn't catch his past working for Frieza would say the same thing about Vegeta that you say about Hiei - he doesn't look strong enough to do it because I've never seen him do it. But that's not a reasonable conclusion at all, and implies that you must see something in order for it to be true - disregarding any reasonable deduction or logical hypothesis and comparisons.

When he destroyed a planet in Saiyan saga his power level was 21,000.
Now, if his power level has raised ( by the end of Frieza saga he had over a million), so did his ability to destroy planets.

^Reasonable deduction.

Why didn't he show that ability? 'Cause all other fights were taking place on the ground (all Frieza saga fights, Goku & him in Saiyan saga, later there's Android saga....). And why would he blow up Earth if he had a cutie pie like Bulma waiting for him at home ?

Well, he wanted to blow up Earth when Goku pissed him in the first fight. Goku stopped him doing it I believe. He was also close to blowing up Earth in the Cell saga 'cause he wanted to destroy Cell badly, but instead, he blew "only" a part of it.

I don't say that Hiei can't do that. But, did he ever show the ability close to destroying planets ? Everything I've seen from Hiei doesn't imply that. Why should I think he can do it if nothing he did conviced me close to it?

If you say only those we've seen do something are capable of doing that thing, then Goku is weaker than Vegeta because he's never destroyed a planet. And Krilling, Tien, any of the good guys are certainly weaker by default since they've never destroyed a planet either and unless we've seen them do it, no one can say they are capable of doing it. That eliminates any comparison and overrules logical thought. In that case, there is no way DBZ could exist since a Goku who is weaker than Vegeta could never have killed those enemies who were easily capable of destroying planets - because without seeing it, it isn't true.

That's a big "if"! I thought the assumption someone assumes something isn't logical thought *scratches head*.

Vegeta's simply a plain badass in my opinion.*runs away*

[Arigatomina]

When he destroyed a planet in Saiyan saga his power level was 21,000.
Now, if his power level has raised ( by the end of Frieza saga he had over a million), so did his ability to destroy planets.

^Reasonable deduction.

At level B as a demon, Hiei was able to make the entire planet shake when he summoned the dragon - those pillars of black that broke through the surface of the 'upper' world and acted as an earthquake. Since he moves from level B, up to level A, and then past the giant gap to level S, then he can do much more than cause world-wide earthquakes just by summoning his dragon - 'if his power level has raised (by the end of 'Makai' saga), so did his ability to destroy planets.

^Reasonable deduction. ;p

I don't say that Hiei can't do that. But, did he ever show the ability close to destroying planets ? Everything I've seen from Hiei doesn't imply that. Why should I think he can do it if nothing he did conviced me close to it?

You tell me. ^_^ What did Goku do to show that he had an ability to destroy a planet? Forget the power scale - if you don't have a comparison between the two anime, you can't go off of a bunch of numbers - you have to go off of visual evidence and 'reasonable deduction.' What does Goku do to make you think he might be strong enough to destroy the planet?

He causes earthquakes and lightning storms when he goes to SSJ3. That's the closest he's ever come to actually effecting the planet. Hiei can do that just by calling black flame from one world to the other. To say that blasts in dbz are capable of destroying a planet if they're aimed at the planet - but that the ones in YYH aren't just because they are never aimed *at* the planet in the anime is exactly what I said - refusing to believe in something unless you've seen it happen. And if you're only going by what you've seen happen (and not reasonable deduction), then you can't use power levels as a means of comparison or proof. Because in the latter part of the series, you don't have a little machine regirstering power levels (and you actually *do* have a little machine in the Makai arc of YYH - but again, there's no comparison of the numbers since we don't know where the two scales sit). All you have is people's testimony in the anime, and if you go according to that, Hiei and Kurama and Koenma and Genkai all say that Sensui is more than powerful enough to destroy the entire world - and we know Hiei matches him in simple 'power' when he hits S level during the Makai arc.

My point - what's good for dbz (specifically Goku) is good for YYH. Goku never aimed one of his blasts at the planet, but you know from his proven visible strength (and people in the anime saying he's stronger than others who are capable of destroying a planet) that if he were to aim a blast at the Earth, he could destroy it. The same for YYH - Hiei never aimed his kokoryuuha at the planet, but you know from his proven visible strength (and people in the anime saying that he's stronger than others who are - in the words of at least 4 characters - capable of destroying the world) that if he were to aim his dragon at the Earth, he could destroy it.

Do you see my problem? You're saying that just because no one in YYH aims their powers at the earth hoping to destroy it, that none of them are capeble of it. But that's a direct contradiction to what you say (and others support as fact) about Goku - based entirely on hearsay and comparison. That doesn't make much sense to me - it almost looks like preferential treatment to one anime over another when people change the rules of 'logic' based on the anime.

[Bote]

lol This turns into a Goku conversation.

You tell me. ^_^ What did Goku do to show that he had an ability to destroy a planet?

Blew away Vegeta's attack that, by Vegeta's words, was meant to destroy Earth.

Do you see my problem? You're saying that just because no one in YYH aims their powers at the earth hoping to destroy it, that none of them are capeble of it.

Nope. Misinterpretation most likely.

Power scales

I guess they can't be compared. Maybe if we ask the creators of both animes, we'll know for sure.

*sends mail* j/k

Reasonable Deduction

I II III IV

M-P P-M M-P P-M
S-M S-M M-S M-S
----- ----- ----- -----
S-P S-P S-P S-P

P-Terminus maior
M-Terminus medius
S-Perpositio maior


It is something like this I think. Maybe I mixed up some combination, it was long ago .

Those are the formulas of reasonable deductions. If I put our statements in some of the 4 figures none of them is compatible . Both of us are defending our favourite characters (I presume Hiei is yours), so we don't have any Terminus maior to have a final conclusion. It's just who you like more.

[rosecrystal]

I have a question. I have only seen a couple of episodes of dbz and YYH, (all on cartoon network).

So is it just me, or is it kind of stupid to be comparing the two though who's power could destroy a plant?

On dbz, I only watched Namic be destroyed. And YYH only takes place on Earth, spirt world, and the demon world , where there seems to be a connection between the three and if one goes whouldn't the others?
I don't mean to be rude, but isn't the fact that there seems to be a lack of plant destruction in either of them make it insignificant?
I don't know what whould be measureable in both, but the flame idea seems a little more concrete.