Super Search Suggestion

[nokvok]

I suggested that before, but people did not comprehend that this Option needs not to be Perfect (hell, non of the others are, either) and needs not to be Istantly added to all Videos... I rather have a 10-20% failure rate when searching for "Punk" or "Classic" than to scroll through hundrets of Entries searching for songs which sound like they would be the kind fo musik i am searching for...

This system does not have to be perfect, nor does it have to be instantly added to all videos.

Neither excuse, however, is an escape from the problem that genre, unlike song title or artist, is completely subjective. The basic problem is that what you think is not what everyone else thinks.

That doesn't matter, since it is not about what i am thinking but what i am telling other peoples, it is a matter of Communication and Communication is and cannot be free of misunderstandings and divergenting Images of the Subject...

So what's the point of "genre", then? Self-expression?

Would that not make a genre classification system useless? After all, the point of any sort of shared systematic labeling system is to provide a common ground for describing things on objective criteria.

No, what i intented to say was: We don't need a perfect systematic labeling system (and we have non, either), cause humans are failure tolerant.
The Common ground is there. People disagree over only little details, actually.

Music Genres are not completely subjective, they are a matter of consensus cause they are part of the categorizing system humans created to communicate... saying those categories are useless for communication is like saying the word "Human" is useless to communicate cause everyone defines Human shleigthly different

This is precisely the problem! When we attempt to use unclear words, we get controversy. (So, yes, I would argue that "human" is useless for all communicative purposes involving classification. It still works fine for invoking imagery, but that is not classification.) Since you brought up the topic of "human", I'll bring up a high-profile case to illustrate my point: Was Terri Schiavo, before her death, still "human"? (I realize that you are not a US citizen, but considering how gruesomely the USA media vultures fed upon Schiavo, I consider it fair to assume that you heard some information about her situation.)

Yeah, this is not the problem... how many "humans" are questionably classified as such? Terry Schiavo (yes, I know about the case), Hitler, Unborn children, Micheal Jackson... it are extreme cases... they still do not make us drop the usage (or the usability) of the word "human", does it?

And just like with the word "human" it is with the Music genres. Only extreme cases are really questionable, and those which are are interpreted on a personal level... so may be i DL one Video in 20 which is labeled as "Rock" when in fact i see the song as "Country" or whatever... big deal, i can live with it. The 19 Other Videos i found more easily due to the new feature make up for that for sure.

Of course, precision in inclusion and exclusion with genre classification does not carry nearly as much weight as it did in that case. However you need some sort of universal basis for deciding what is in a given category and what is not. If you do not provide that basis, then we have the proliferation problem; if you provide a basis that is too open, you have the same problem; and if you provide a basis that is too strict, then you have the same problem. Each of these situations contributes to the uselessness of genre as a classification system. This gets me to the real point:

... yeah, and like i said before, we do have that universall basis.. that is where our Genres come from, each genre allready carries enough Universal consensus within to be usefull for rougt categorisation of Music... that is what the Genres are used for all over the world... why should it be a problem for us to use it, too?

If you want to go the restricted categories route, you run into the questions I asked in my previous posts, which have yet remained unanswered.

There are ways and methods which can work.
One springing to mind is a Categorisation tree, which links subcategories to the more general Categories (like if you are looking for Metal you also search for Black metal, Death metal, etc. but you could also look just for Black metal (and thus black emo metal, black growling metal, etc.), this in conjunction with an Addition, purely describtive field for an optional Costum made Genre name (to satisfy the fundamentalists) should be able to provide a solution to most of your problems.

The primary problem is not one of organization; that part is relatively easy, and a categorization tree such as you proposed might work (although you must take into consideration the ability to link one track to multiple genres). The big problem is deciding who makes the rules.

Argh. Those who develop the Upload mask of course. since they design the Interface, there really are next to no rules neccessary, only a well made Organisation of Categories, Subcategories and mixed Categories.
If a Creator does not want to fill in the Genre, he can let it be... his video will not be found via Genre search.
If a creator adds all genres to cheat more hits in the search Engine, it can be reported just as with videos with all categories added. It makes no sense to add all Categories or Genres anyways, cause people tend to skip over Videos which have contradicting describtions... may be someone should tell that to the creators before they upload...



I really see enough usability of such a feature to integrate it. It is not urgent and need not be perfect, so there is no pressure in finishing that project and thus can have only those recources allocated to it which are not needed otherwise.
I is a low risk project with demand and usablility, there is no real reason to not add it somewhen.

[BasharOfTheAges]

I, personally, think you have too much faith in the people who upload videos as a whole, nokvok. I havn't done a complete categorization of the system, but i see enough misrepresented work -- in terms of artist, song name, anime used, conventions shown at, and even primere date -- to represent "incorect enteries" as a vast minority of the org's housed works. Your assumption that problems will occur only 5% of the time is why you and trythil keep going back and forth on this. Judging by what's currently out there for errors (and the inherent dificulty in determining Genre that some people will have) i'd say there'd be at least a 25% (possibly as high as 40%) problem occurance.

That's why it dosn't seem worth it.

[AbsoluteDestiny]

Even if categorisation were easy this idea would not happen because the ratio of "effort in order to implement" to "actual usefulness" is really shitty.

[nokvok]

Shitty yeah... i would use that shit like everytime i DL something, no matter if there is 5%, 25% or 40% carbage between the correct entries... I can deal with that when searching after Anime, Artist or Category, so i can deal with it When searchin after Genres.
... I don't think i am in such a small minority... given, i don't know the exact effort needed to implement it, but i really think it is worth being considered.

If you are worried that people have too divergent view of Genres put a note before the upload page explaining how the AMV itself viewes the Genres... that will reduce the mislabeling to blatant Ignorance and intented abuse

[badmartialarts]

If it's something added by the creator, I see no problem at all (well, other than adding a new column to the table, which may be hard, me having little knowledge of whatever database kludges hold the .org together). Something similar to the drop down lists for band. I do propose that the indexing on this be word-sensitive rather than full-phrase sensitive. That way I'm free to list Man or Astro-Man? as Experimental Surf Rock and people who search for 'rock' will still find them, and also see the extra quantifiers of "Experimental" and "Surf" and thus be warned a bit.

[Farlo]

why not do genres but at first(beta version or somthing of this mannor) just use simplified genres

something like classify all metal as metal(for now) no need to black/folk/death metal subclassification.

i would even volunteer my time(though ill be going letter by letter) i could also list the misspelled bands.

[Farlo]

after looking at the amount of artists and completely wrong entries, i say screw that.

[Kai Stromler]

Fortunately I can pick up Farlo's slack. I have actually gone through the artists listed exhaustively and would be willing to renice at least the metal/hard rock domain. The number of mistakes is not that huge (given proper time to completion), and for the bad cases like Linkin Thirty Retarded Misspellings Even Though They're Fucking Everywhere Park, there's usually enough under each caption to justify automation.

What I'm worried about is manually fixing "unknown"/"I don't know"; go browse by artists I and U and boggle at the idiocy.

As for the doable part, fixing misspellings and applying basic genres, I'd probably have to brush up on my SQL syntax, but if y'all admins think this is a reasonable idea, all I'd need is console access and a couple weeks.

--K

[Kalium]

As for the doable part, fixing misspellings and applying basic genres, I'd probably have to brush up on my SQL syntax, but if y'all admins think this is a reasonable idea, all I'd need is console access and a couple weeks.

What we really need is about 50 people and better tools for dealing with artist merges.

[Farlo]

ill help, but no way in hell would i solo it