Girls in anime are better than girls in American animation

[staces]

Now that I think about it, I think he's right in most cases.

She.

[Kionon]

Yet another conversation focusing on girls. I apologize in advance for my bitterness, but:

What about damaging portrayals of men?

In our society, we often tell girls that they can be anything they want. If they want to be stereotypically female, they can be. If they would rather break with the stereotype, they can do that too.

No one wants to let boys do the same.

Popular culture is just as harmful to boys as it is to girls. Let's take a look at some of the examples mentioned.

Kim Possible: Ron Stoppable. Everytime something goes wrong, it's usually because of him. Kim has to save him. He is weak, BUT he is constantly trying to change that, and when fails, we, the audience, are told to laugh at him for it. Kim can be strong, and that's all right, but Ron cannot be, and that's funny.

Disney Princes? Oh come on. With MAYBE the exception of Aladdan, who actually shows some kind of actual insecurity, most Disney Princes are essentially about as thin as a dime when it comes to character. All they communicate to a boy is that he must be big and strong and brave and look like fabio. No wonder boys lose interest in such a role model.

Now, I will argue with you about Lizzie McGuire. I actually happen to like the show, and why? Because of Gordo. He MAKES the show. He's about as anti-stereotypical as it gets. He's geeky and unusual, but that doesn't stop him from purposefully choosing to be the obviously "weaker" (I wish I could find a better term for this) character. Yet, if you've seen the movie, you know he wins out in the end.

Don't abandon your boy to gender stereotyping anymore than you are planning to abandon your girl to it. By failing to protect him, you're feeding the system you claim to have a deep seated contempt for. That's far more than my two yen, but consider the extra a tip.

[OtakuMan22]

Wow, this definitly did NOT go the way I was expecting it to. I was thinking there might have been more defenders of the roles of girls in anime, but apparently I have more than enough devil's advocates trying to prove me wrong.


Fair enough!


Alright, how to tackle these:

They tend to be stupid, clumsy, loud mouthed, vaguely-stalkerish, yet still pure and innocent sex objects that male leads protect and save. Then the villany women are bitchy seductresses. . .

from all that I've seen, there are a lot more bimbo anime girls than there are American cartoon bimbos.

I admit that there are quite a few girls that are simply too bimbo-istic for their own good in anime. (Thinking of Mihoshi from Tenchi Muyo, various maid series (Mahoromatic, Hand Maid May), and those based off dating sims). However, I think the balance between total bimbos and worthy female characters is balanced more in favor of good female roles. While it would be difficult to count total numbers, some of the best anime out there are the ones with good female characters.

But of course anime just HAAAAS to be superior to American animation in every possible facet so of course I'm wrong, right?

Well not necessarily, but you know... considering this is the "General Anime" forum, I would have thought there would be a lot more people who back up, well, anime! Also, let me remind you that I'm a 22 year old guy in his last year of college. Open mindedness is CRUCIAL where I am now, so don't think I automatically assume anime > everything. It's not everything, but it does have merit!

You know what I find when I look back? My favorite cartoons (after I hit 5 and started to integrate my own imagination into the 'stories' I watched on tv) were the boy's cartoons. Most of the girls I knew as a kid watched those same 'boy' cartoons. We all had the coloringbooks and action figures.

Cool! I always figured that women got better air-time in boys shows anyway. As for shows like Strawberry Shortcake, and My Little Pony, and Rainbow Brite, it's hard for me to criticize those shows for anything really. They have fantasy worlds with fantasy settings and are GOOD for providing a foundation for budding imaginations.

The shows that get my goat are the ones that over-exaggerate what a woman's worth is. As I said earlier, enemy No. 1 in my mind are the Bratz!

Speaking of which, has anyone even SEEN these? In no way are these even close to the goodness of Rainbow Brite or Strawberry Shortcake.

Instead of trying to reform the shows aimed at girls, we should be trying to get the girls to watch the shows that are good - no matter who those shows were 'made for.'

That's a good idea! I like it! Now if only there was some way to get that through to the network marketing dumbasses here stateside for future programming!

It makes me wonder if anime has led little girls in Japan to mimicking harem anime and bouncing their breasts for any guy around - to get that wonderful fanservice going.

I doubt that. Besides, what times are "those" shows on TV in Japan anyway? I doubt these would be on when little Japanese girls are awake and up and about. Pokemon, Sailor Moon, Naruto, Shaman King, and Hikaru No go are more likely to be on TV during the day than say Mahoromatic, Tenchi Muyo, or Steel Angel Kurumi.

From my understanding, the shows with excess fanservice are PURPOSELY trying to market jiggly girls at guys and otaku and the horny otaku laps it up like water. Does bring up the question on what girls think of those anime, but that will be for another time...

But don't ask me. I'm not having children. Why? Because I believe a parent is responsible for *everything* that child does until he or she moves out of the house.

Luckily for me and my wife, we do NOT believe that. We are responsible for their upbringing and making sure they are smart, clever, and have a promising future, but we do not believe we should be controlling of them.

My wife watches Oprah (only if it's a good meaningful episode), and sometimes I watch it with her, and one of the biggest issues that came out was that women are spending more time with their kids than their HUSBANDS! One wife put it like this, "I am in love with my husband, NOT my kids!" Meaning while you love your kids, you are not IN love with them and want to spend every waking moment with them. Most women are making this mistake of OVER-parenting their children. I've seen some severe examples of how this can be REALLY bad on those Nanny shows that popped up on the networks.

This is another discussion for another time, yes, but from what my wife and I have gathered, it is a balance between being too lax in parenting and over-parenting. If an extreme is reached, then nothing good can come of it. And some extremes are REALLY bad!

Oh, and I missed one that fits both the "fashion-loving" and "empowered" aspects: Kim Possible.

I gotta disagree with you on that one bud. My outward exposure to Kim Possible has been rather negative. It's either her doing funky poses in a spy suit, or jumping up and down in a cheerleader outfit. My impressions are that in order to be kick ass, you also have to be popular too. Not a message I particularly like.

And also, keep in mind that kicking of butt is NOT what I particularly think of as making a strong female figure in anime. Trying to make girls more like boys is NOT my intention.

My intention is to show that even though you may not be well known, or popular; despite what fun things there are out there to enjoy; despite all the good things; so comes the bad! I want my girl to learn to be strong NOT physically (if she wants to, that's okay by me) but mentally and emotionally! I want her to be SMART and learn that there is a lot of importance in education because it will help determine her ability to solve complex problems and learn from history and more! I want her to be EMOTIONALLY STRONG so that when tragedy happens whether it be by loss or misfortune or sadness and grief, she can live through it and grow stronger from experience. I want her to be WISE so she can learn when and when not to trust something at face value and be able to make well made decisions that follow her own personal beliefs. I DON'T want her to think that she has to be popular. I DON'T want her to think that her worth is measured by her looks, status, or wealth. I DON'T want her to fall into a mold that I am slowly seeing where young girls become overly faciscious and immature at a young age.

What about damaging portrayals of men?

AW! NEW THREAD DUDE! NEW THREAD!


Okay, that about rants up my ranting and raving! Now I better get back to work before my boss finds out I've spend almost an hour typing this post up!

~Otaku-Man

P.S. Remember, I'm a NEWLYWED! I don't have a daughter yet, but I'm talking about what I WOULD like should I have a daughter! (And my wife wants one too)

[rexumeD]

Wow, what interesting topic here.
Im new in the forum, but this is very important for me, im 26 and have a baby boy 6months In a few years ill be watching tv shows choosing good and bad for he.

I cant give an extended comment as you, but i remember another one old

CANDY , can this be categorized as ANIME ??? i think was a good teenager real life show, Isnt it?

[Keeper of Hellfire]

One good example I've seen is PowerPuff Girls, ...

What should your daughter learn from it? That violence is the solution for all problems?

I think to start with asking what show your daughter should watch is the wrong beginning. First of all, your children, no matter if boy or girl, should play active with other children, prefered outside, instead of passive consuming entertainment. If this is the case, it doesn't matter what show they watch as long as it is intended for their age. What's important is the parental guidance. I don't mean supervision or to prohibit some shows. But if they have watched TV, talk with them about what they have seen. So you have the chance to correct them if they learn the wrong things from the show. You should now that children up to 10 (that's what you askked for, if I'm right) aren't really aware of whats right or wrong, just and unjust. They have to learn it, and mostly it's better they learn it from the parents than from the TV.

[Keeper of Hellfire]

You should know that children up to 10 ....

Damn missing edit button!

[OtakuMan22]

Alright! Two pages of content! Nice! If this keeps up, it'll start a whole movement!

im 26 and have a baby boy 6months

Congratulations! I think another thread should be started along the same lines as this one, but focusing on the roles of boys in anime and cartoons.

Oh, and YES! Candy IS an anime from the 1970's (If I'm correct) that was very popular in Europe that broadcasted it about simultaneously as Japan did. However, I REALLY doubt your boy would find that one interesting. Shaman King, One Piece, or Naruto on the other hand, I think he'd get a kick out of!

What should your daughter learn from it? That violence is the solution for all problems?

I think you need to watch a little bit more PowerPuff Girls in order to get the jist of some of the brilliant writing. Remember, this show is from the same guy who later did Samurai Jack and the Star Wars: Clone Wars micro-series. I am the oldest sibling in my family, so I often had to wrestle the TV away from younger sibs, not to mention occasional babysitting. 'Cause of this, I have seen my fair share of PowerPuff girls, and some of them are really quite funny and sometimes have a lesson snuck in there.

One example was when the girls are trying to emulate their favorite comic books heroes. One models herself after Wonder Woman, another after a dark Spawn-like character, and the last... think Miffy the rabbit meets Hello Kitty. At the end, the emulation just doesn't work, and they realize they can do much more working together and not trying to be who they're not. The writing was quite well done.

So don't dismiss PPG right off the bat. After all... there IS that anime series coming out in Japan, remember?

First of all, your children, no matter if boy or girl, should play active with other children, prefered outside, instead of passive consuming entertainment

WHY do people keep thinking that I want my child to be to do nothing but have his/her brain turned to mush by TV? NO NO NO! I DO intend for them to make friends and have fun with others inside AND out, but there ARE going to be times where they will watch TV, and WHAT they watch is VERY important especially if they are 2 or 3!

You are right that good parenting is important... I KNOW THAT! The point is that as the parent, I want to expose my child to anime more so than just regular broadcast TV shows. Everything I've been saying so far is my reasoning behind that. At no point did I say that it should be a substitute for normal social behavior or play! Nor as a parental substitute!

If you REALLY think that TV is that bad for children, then you'd better be ready for NO TV AT ALL! That's the ONLY way you can make sure your child does NOTHING but be active and socialize with other children (who at this point will likely be ones WITH TVs and the kids will go over to watch their favorite shows or play games with other children. I mean to them, your house might as well suck!)

But enough ranting on that tangent. I want to make it clear that I intend to be a RESPONSIBLE parent who believe that KIDS anime is better TV for children than the cartoons on regular TV. ESPECIALLY when it comes to the roles of girls in animation.

Phew!

Damn missing edit button!

Tell me about it! For crying out loud, if the post is offensive, it's going to be depublished anyway! Let us exert a little more control over our posts, huh? ACK! Another time, another thread!

~Otaku-Man

[Kionon]

AW! NEW THREAD DUDE! NEW THREAD!

I don't think it has enough merit to warrant a thread on a-m-v.org. Elsewhere, yes.

However, I will note, "new thread" doesn't adequately explain while your focus is on only one of your hypothetical children and not the other, unless you intend to answer my points there. If not, isn't the fact that you feel you have to protect your daughter and not your son ultimately sending her a negative message about women's roles?

[OtakuMan22]

I don't think it has enough merit to warrant a thread on a-m-v.org. Elsewhere, yes.

If this thread hadn't earned two pages worth of comment and more than 100 views, then I would have to agree with you there. But apparently this subject has some merit, and I think a topic on the roles of boys in anime and cartoons is a worthy subject. I might start a new thread on that later after this one tapers out a bit.

However, I will note, "new thread" doesn't adequately explain while your focus is on only one of your hypothetical children and not the other, unless you intend to answer my points there.

Yes, Yes I do. In fact, you can start the thread and I can add my comments on it. Or would you prefer if I start it?

If not, isn't the fact that you feel you have to protect your daughter and not your son ultimately sending her a negative message about women's roles?

NOW that's just reading a wee bit too much into what I'm saying, but to indulge your curiosity, here's my thinking:


I am a gamer and a hardcore one at that. So hardcore, I'm in college to go INTO gaming. I do not game for the sake of wasting hours and hours upon time, but I enjoy the stories and depth of single player games and want to get the creativity in my head out in a medium that can truly express my thoughts. I intend to take scriptwriting classes for games and animation (Cutscenes), and I work doing software testing for a rather large (like international-large) company as part of my college graduation requirements. I am essentially taking my passionate hobby and making it a career. A dream I've had since 2nd grade.

I look forward to being a father in the near future. And while I really do want a daughter, I want to have a son as well. One boy and one girl preferably. I want them BOTH to be smart, clever, and strong. The world's a rough place, and I want them prepared. Best time to start is when they're young. I'm not talking like forcing them into sports, or being controlling, but being there for them when they need me, and trying to be a part of their lives. Since I've had my share of TV exposure (And what child of the 80's hasn't? ), I want to make sure that my kids get to watch good stuff to give them imagination, some creativity, good ways to live life (morals included), and to also just have fun. Shows that insult people's intelligence, child or adult, should REALLY not be watched. It's easier for adults to pick and choose than it is for children. They get whatever broadcast networks force down their throats unless a good parent can offer them alternatives if they want it, and expose them to a world outside of what's immediately given.

It's complicated stuff, but it's a goal I'm going to try and acheive.

After all, I've got a long life ahead of me.

~Otaku-Man

[Evangelion Unit 01]

This is a peculiar phenomenon that I've been noticing recently. It pertains to the portrayal of pre-pubescent and teenage girls in American animation in contrast to anime.

My hypothesis is that American animation stifles the possibilities of young girls by constantly portraying them as "fashion obsessed", cheerleaders, princesses, or fairies, and other fantasy myths that look forward to meeting boys and essentially becoming a growing gross stereotype of young girls... BRATZ!

I would defintly have to agree with that. Such as totally spies and the new princess fariy thing on CN. But the reason for that is, I am only guessing here, is that shows are trying to have more of a female audience, and they have nothing yet to go off of except stereotypes, and my idea is that it is aimed at younger girls who pretend to be that way with their dolls at that age being 9-11ish or so. This of course is all just a guess on my part.

For my resources, while I do want to focus on American animation primarily, I will reference to other non-animation media such as toys and live-action TV. Examples include: Disney Princesses, Lizzy Mcguire, Winx Club, Bratz, Rugrats All-Growned Up, Paris Hilton, Totally Spies, Kim Possible, Mary Kate and Ashley Olson, and others.

For the contrasting resources, I will stick solely to anime and manga. Examples include: Zatch Bell, Shaman King, Sailor Moon, Azumanga Daioh, Full Metal Panic, and others.


First, a bit about myself and why I'm doing this. I am a 22 year-old newlywed that has big dreams about my future, and one of those dreams is to have kids and raise them on good stuff. Good anime, good TV shows, not to shield them from harmful realities and truths, but to give them a chance to get good ideas for the future, build their imagination, and become good people led by example.

Since I am not one of spending large amounts of cash on anime, (and I spend more on video games over anime right now since I'm studying to be a game director), I often stick to what's on TV. My selection is pretty good thanks to 4Kids TV, Toonami, Adult Swim, G4, Anime Network on Demand.

The televised sources give me a good idea of what to expect my children might watch in the future. I am particularly interested, as is my wife, with the portrayal of girls on kids TV because we hope to have both a boy and a girl (I would like a daughter since I grew up in a family of three boys!) in a few years.

Right now, anime is looking to have some very powerful and inspiring role models for girls. They are strong, good-hearted, not selfish, not overly-sexed up (remember... KIDS anime!), and have a good sense of moral values.

One very striking example of how strong girls in anime can be came from Zatch Bell. While definitly a shonen anime, one of the Mamodo, Tia, is trying to protect her book owner from her one-time friend Maruce. She stands there, facing him head on and takes blow after blow after blow. She reveals her true emotions through her thoughts and flashbacks over what she's been through. Since he used to be her friend, she believes that trusting anyone other than her book owner will lead to her own demise.

When Zatch shows up to help her out, she's not going all gushy about how a guy came to save the day! She's going through emotional turmoil wondering why ANYONE, girl OR boy, would do their hardest to save her. Her previous doubts in trusting others are shattered and she reaches an epiphany that makes her stronger when she puts faith in others and knows not to shut everyone out of her world.

THAT is deep stuff to a little girl! While sure it's a boys show, it is not uncommon for girls to watch boys shows along with shows aimed at girls. However, Tia shines as a great role model on how girls can be strong in their own way if they have some good values in their life. Remember, this is not just physical strength, but the strength to care, trust, believe, and be you because you want to be you!

Well ever thought I am not to much into zachbell I will have to say that I agree with you on that part, and I definatly enjoy the fact that anime gets into the character's heads, and then the viewer truly knows who the character is.

However, American animation and media aimed at girls appears to be nothing more than a marketing ploy to sell cheap products to young girls. The worst example I can think of is the BRATZ line of toys and now straight to video animation releases (check your Wal-Mart's kids video section. It's there!). Every impression I get from Bratz is that a girls worth is based on her clothes, make-up, hair style, and popularity. Their "individual" is nothing more than a shallow and facetious exterior of an empty shell. Worse, they make girls that are supposed to 10 or 11 look almost 18! How wrong is that! If anything, this has to be the worst setback to the equality of girls since that Barbie doll with the inflating boobs to indicate that she's "growing-up"!

WOW, I got to find that doll. Just kidding. . Anyway, I would first like to say that Wal-Mart is pure evil like soccer moms, and I also think it is wrong for a 9-10 year old to wear a wonder braw, but I just sort of roll my eyes at that sort of thing. I am against censorship so I can't say I want to stop people from doing this, but I can agree that with you about the idoticy of people doing this. I guess I can see a little reasoning about why girls that age act this way is because all people when they are that young can't wait to grow up. The idea of Peter Pan is gone. It is very possible that girls of that age see they're older sisters or friends acting in the same sort of way on TV, or they just see people outside in general, I think I would go more with the outside, acting this way because this is just outside material. No one is going to get emotional like that just out in random public. So this is all they see, and maybe it is all they know? Who knows? All I can say is keep them watching the good stuff, and you'll do them just! [/quote]

I will grant that not all media or animation aimed at girls sets the gender back by decades. Disney Princesses and the recent Barbie line of dolls (I used to work in a Toy Store 2 summers ago) aren't that bad. Disney Princesses appeals to the young girl who dreams of a fantasy land of magic and castles. The best use of them that I've seen was in Kingdom Hearts where they provided the key to either unleashing hell upon the Disney/Square-Enix universe, or stopping the Heartless!

I love Kingdom hearts!

I also give credit to the Barbie line of having Barbie go through various good roles such as Doctor, Teacher, and then some. Going beyond fashion has been a great move and puts Barbie in a positive spin. I even recall seeing "Granparent" Barbie dolls complete with gray hair and wrinkly skin. Sure they weren't bad looking for grandparents (this IS Barbie we're talking about here), but the revelation to young girls about growing old can be seen in those dolls.

Stuff aimed at girls in anime does have a marketing force behind them, (Sailor Moon comes to mind), but while they may have heavy marketing, the characters themselves are quite strong. In Sailor Moon, Usagi (or Serena or Bunny for whichever version of Sailor Moon you were exposed to), shows inner strength throughout the series. She deals with trying to find true love, to realizing that she will be a mother and important figure in the future, to having to deal with the loss of friends and continuing to stop a greater evil. She literally has to go through death and rebirth in order to come full circle with her destiny.

One particular moment that really struck me was at the beginning of Sailor Moon StarS. The main baddie from the previous series, Sailor Moon SuperS, had come back and trapped Usagi in a field of flowers where she loses her mind and starts picking flowers like a little girl. Sailor Jupiter shows up, with her senses intact, and tries to snap Usagi out of her daze. While she's trying to do this, Jupiter is constantly being struck and beat, until I believe she dies right before Usagi. When her earring falls off, Usagi spots it and her eyes literally CHANGE at the sight, revealing that things are NOT alright, and that some very powerful force needs to be faced and STOPPED!

You will NOT see something like that in American animation. It simply will NOT happen! If we continue to produce shows like Winx Club (cheerleaders who are fairies) and Kim Possible (cheerleaders who are also spies) and while not America, Totally Spies (spies who might as well be cheerleaders), then I would take every measure possible to make sure my daughter is NEVER exposed to those shows! I will make every effort to find Sailor Moon, Zatch Bell, Shaman King, ANY anime that has positive female role models so that she NEVER has to think she HAS to be popular, and NEVER has to think she needs to be a cheerleader.

Like I said earlier I am against cenorship in anyway shap or form, well I guess as long as no one is really pysically hurt, but I will say that you might want be carful, because what you are saying is making me beleive you are slowly turning into a soccer mom or some who is for censorship. Look, if you want to try and change the way american animation is for woman the fact of the matter is that the only right way to do that is slowly. Don't try to censor everything, and do it the fast way because it will only blow up in your face. What I would do is introduce some knew shows on TV if you are some how trying to plan to work for televison. Make some anime shows that have your ideals in them, and try to gain their popularity. If it works they shows that I roll my eyes at (totally spies) will slowly disappear and better shows will arise, just don't go done the path or censorship, because as yoda says "...forever shall it consume your destiny." The good knews is that anime is already slowly sinking into american soil, look at all the mock animes, I mean the Avatar on Nick the girl in there is not some sexed up princess at least for what I have seen. But it will take a while maybe a 100 years, and I mean that truthfully. Look how long freedom of speach and religion are taking. So, for now if I where you I would simply ignore those shows you don't like and create or enjoy that you do, that is why their are supstitues for everything like american anime for Japanese anime.

My conclusion is this: The future generation of young girls is going to be a step BACKWARD in the female movement for strength, indivduality, and respect as long as shows like I've mentioned before continue to be produced. There needs to be a serious boycott initiated by parents to make sure that their young girls DON'T WATCH THESE SHOWS and DON'T GET INTO THESE TOYS that demean them!

Women and especially girls in anime have strong feelings, thoughts, emotions, and morals that today's generation of young girls NEED! I for one am going to work with my wife to make sure we raise our future daughter right, and I want to hear what you all think about that. What other atrocities or set backs have you seen? What good female examples have you seen in American shows? (One good example I've seen is PowerPuff Girls, but I'll save the Cartoon Network shows for another post)

Please write some feedback. I'm interested in hearing what you have to say.

~Otaku-Man

To end this reread what I wrote in red! And also that is a pretty big goal, and it probably won't happen, I am already helping your boy cot because I think those show are stupid anyway, but seriously fight back with something you create rather then destoring someone else's creation. Also note that not everything is black and white. There are good female roles in anime like Nick's Avatar which I stated above and various other things I can't think of right now because it is 1:00 in the morning. But anyway also some anime are fully of sexy stupid blonds let's see I guess soccer hunters all though they aren't blond, and steel angle kuriumi, and bastard, and Akira. I beleive in a way all degrad woman. So it goes both ways just remember that, and remember not to destory some else's creation, but to but more fouces on your own. Things take time, who knows this might be a step forward look at it in all the lights!