We need a leader

[SnhKnives]

RDS: bullying the little guys?

More like...

RDS: Lose Your Identity in a Sea of Names

I like your thinking soldier!

[dwchang]

RE: McWagner/Arigatomina

Man we need McWagner summarizing everyone's post into nice succinct messages.

[MCWagner]

The title of the thread disputes this. It reads, "We need a leader." Even if he meant a "new video or approach" in the form of an amv, some individual or group must make that amv. That means he's looking for an individual because - like you said - videos don't spring forth without someone behind the screen doing the editing.

His explanation clarifies what he meant.

We haven't had a definitive video since Euphoria, and before that, Shameless Rock Video.

And the hobby itself clarifies what he meant. AMVs have never had a "leader" in any real form. People talk about Joe Croasdaile or Kevin Caldwell like they were at the head of some kind of organization, but they never were. Joe was always too much of an egotist and kept all his styles to himself, Kevin drifted around like a phantom, hardly ever posting on the earliest boards or meeting many of us before just disappearing. "Groundbreaking" in AMVing has always been in appreciation of some single work, not the dictates or suggestions of some individual out in front of the rest of us, directing work.

My problem isn't with the disputed need for change, it's with the method of arguing that need. There are plenty of supporters posting in this thread, but they're all saying the same thing - "I can't do it, don't look at me, but you're right, we need to find someone who can and will do it for us." My point was to ignore the naysayers, collect the supporters, and go brainstorm away from outside influence. If none of them can do it alone, put them in a room together so they can combine forces. Surely in a collective of like minded individuals they can accomplish something.

This is a fine point, but your attitutde is springing from reading stuff into the thread that isn't there. Within three posts we already had people going "quit whining and do it yourself." There's a couple people saying "I just like what I'm doing, so I'll keep doing that" and no one's replied harshly to them, and a bunch of others saying "yeah, I'm trying something new myself." Then a bunch of people like yourself who focused solely on Beo's dislike of the top 10, and attacked him for being elitist, which was never the point. No one's saying "lead me lead me" like you seem to think.

I don't see the need for it. I don't think people who don't see the need for it should be posting, because they only contribute negativity and irritate the ones who do see the need for it.

Well, you certainly proved that point.

But even if I don't personally see the need for it, I can still argue about the method they're using to get what they're after. They won't get it by wasting time defending themselves. They feel there is a need, they have people posting who also feel there is a need. Grab them and start brainstorming. Then start editing.

Repeating the pointless "Quit whining and start editing" post that showed up three replies in. And just as readily rebutted, when Beo points out that he IS trying. But he wants to talk about it too. What's wrong with that?

What's the point of arguing that we need something great when we can't even settle on which videos are an example of greatness? First you'll have to convince everyone to stand behind at least one video that exemplifies greatness. Then you have to establish how lonely that single video is - to show a lack of similarly great videos. Only then can you prove there's a need for more videos like that one. As long as we can't settle on what is or isn't great, there's no point even attempting to argue the need for a new great video.

So, because one person thinks it sucks, Moby Dick isn't a classic. Therefore why should we try to write better? This argument is nonsense because you seem to think that universal appreciation is necessary for something to be "great" or to advance the artform. That is lazy defeatism of the highest order, because it argues not only that YOU needen't do anything new or different, but that NO ONE ELSE SHOULD. Art advances in technical respects, and spreads out in many extensions in aesthetic respects, by people trying new stuff, which Beo is observing doesn't seem to be happening much.

This thread works better as a petition. Do you see the need for the next great thing? Join forces with us and let's see what we can do to make something we can rally behind.

Which makes me wonder why you're trying to derail it with an air of moral superiority. Did the comment about "the top 10 is trash" sting THAT badly?

[MCWagner]

Hey, I actually refered to the .org since I didn't see that much videos older than 1997 on the server. I know there were people that made videos back in the 80s, but actually I didn't that that into account.

I know, I'm just feeling old. I mean, "classic" in my eyes is stuff that was around before I got into the hobby. Greats like Corn Pone, Matt Murray, C-ko Kotobushi, Jeff Tateric, "you know who", Lee & Joe & Vlad's early stuff, etc. Vids I used to collect off the tail end of distro tapes & the like.

WWMMD

[Kalium]

Repeating the pointless "Quit whining and start editing" post that showed up three replies in. And just as readily rebutted, when Beo points out that he IS trying. But he wants to talk about it too. What's wrong with that?

By itself, nothing. What's wrong is the rather pointedly insulting tone. What's wrong is that Beo's "rebuttal" (if that it can be called) consisted of some attemped insults and a shameless self-plug. What's more is that talking about it is likely to accomplish exactly nothing. It's like fiddling while Rome burns, without the destructive implications. You can't force creativity. You can't force artistic development. It's going to happen on its own, and talking about it like this is only going to ruffle feathers and puncture egos.

Art advances in technical respects, and spreads out in many extensions in aesthetic respects, by people trying new stuff, which Beo is observing doesn't seem to be happening much.

I addressed this already, although it seems to have been overlooked in lieu of your spat with Ari by most.

Bear in mind that artistic development isn't something that typically happens in sudden leaps and bounds. It's more commonly in the form of a hundred or a thousand people doing small variations on extant thing techniques. Then looking at each others works, and doing another round of variations. Accrete over multiple rounds of this, and you have artistic development.

Voila, no need for a percieved "groundbreaking" video. Nevermind the ego boost that goes with making something popular.

[Ingow]

Man I totally start loving MCWagner posts.

Seriously

[badmartialarts]

MCWagner needs to post on Hypeo's boards. :O

Seriously, this is great. Nothing is really being said in this thread but damn we're having a grand time talking about it. I now regret my short post earlier.


Alright, if we want a debate over what the next great thing could be, which as previously pointed out is kind of impossible to do, then lets get that rolling. As pointed out, none of the 'great' videos that have been the 'leaders' of this community were anything that could not have been predicted beforehand. Before "Engel" there were great videos that were very similar. What "Engel" did was add in the hilarity of Asuka lipsyncing to bad German rock music, AND be a great exercise in internal sync and external sync, AND just be a fun video in toto. It wasn't necessarily groundbreaking, but it was a great concept with elements from previous videos done BETTER than a lot of previous videos. That is I think the key. Before "Shameless Rock Video" there were crazy effectsy videos, but Shameless Rock Video went crazier. Before Euphoria there wer floating shapes but Euphoria kicked it up a notch. Before Shounen Bushido (I think this video belongs on the list, like or hate it) there were videos with cutout characters, but it merely stepped up the game. So what could the next thing be? Well, there is the Shounen Bushido route that hito is slowly evolving (The Race is fun as heck, but the song is annoying. With a catchier song, it might be the video you were looking for.), with multiple animes getting together for fun and profit with each others characters. There are MADs which non-Japanese creators are approaching faster than I thought (Sir Lagsalot's Wonders at Your Feet and that one video from ACen with the terribly annoying KOTOKO song, for two examples). I'm not sure if either of those is the way to go though, but I'm willing to be impressed. 3D rotoscoping is slowly appearing, and people are building their own videos in their own enviroments (metro's True Fiction, in a sense; trythil's Urban Suite; and tyler's Jihaku, again in a sense). I'm sure the video that will be the next jawdropper will have some of this in it. Heck, True Fiction is already a jawdropper for me, but the community is slow to turn to it, preferring thier Naruto videos.

The problem with looking for leadership in the Top Ten list has already been addressed. Now that the .org has reached the exponential growth part of it's S-curve, new members tell new members who tell new members. And they want their happy little Naruto and Inuyasha videos, not complex, jawdropping effects as the last wave of members wanted. And not intelligent storycraft as the last wave wanted, etc. etc. etc. So the Top Ten shifts to accomodate. And the previous waves are being crushed by the tide of newness. Such is the way of all systems, at least, until you reach the apex and the dying off begins...

Well, I've gone on enough. This intelligent post will be lost in the tide of Beo bashing. :/

[MCWagner]

What's wrong is the rather pointedly insulting tone. What's wrong is that Beo's "rebuttal" (if that it can be called) consisted of some attemped insults and a shameless self-plug.

Then take issue with the attitude, instead of attacking his point, with which you apparently agree. How hard is it to say "I agree that I would like to see more innovation within the hobby, but I think you're being needlessly dismissive of the popular videos"? I'd get behind a statement like that.

What's more is that talking about it is likely to accomplish exactly nothing... You can't force creativity. You can't force artistic development. It's going to happen on its own, and talking about it like this is only going to ruffle feathers and puncture egos.

I disagree. This discussion, before everyone got all offended, might have encouraged some people to examine why they are less satisfied with recent productions, and look for new ways to work. Creativity, like all human endeavor, favors complacency and momentum, and sometimes needs a push to get out of a rut. Moreover, discussions like this HAVE to do more than no discussion at all.

Art advances in technical respects, and spreads out in many extensions in aesthetic respects, by people trying new stuff, which Beo is observing doesn't seem to be happening much.

I addressed this already, although it seems to have been overlooked in lieu of your spat with Ari by most.

I'm sorry, I fail to see how my comment is in any way in conflict with your post. You just seem to think that no encouragement towards new ideas is necessary for... employment of new ideas. "Art just happens."

Bear in mind that artistic development isn't something that typically happens in sudden leaps and bounds. It's more commonly in the form of a hundred or a thousand people doing small variations on extant thing techniques. Then looking at each others works, and doing another round of variations. Accrete over multiple rounds of this, and you have artistic development.

The hobby itself seems to contradict this. Long before the hobby expanded to the scale it's at now, many fewer people were demonstrating greater innovation with fewer resources than what I see now, contradicting your "more people naturally expand the medium in more innovative directions" point. I've seen some new innovations and clever material done recently, but for honestly heart-wrenching, memorable videos, I keep finding myself further and further back in the archives while the newer crop is frequently just another infinity of pseudo-matched variations on one or another theme that I've grown tired of. You seem to argue that "goundbreaking" videos don't actually exist, but from personal experience I saw many crop up in the early days of the hobby, seemingly out of nowhere, with no relation to anything around them. Single videos would catch everyone's attention and fascination for YEARS at a time. People spoke about the vids with a sense of AWE. Why don't we do that anymore? (With the exception of "Ninja of the Night" which has become the "Freebird" of VAT request tracks.)

It is possible to have new ideas. It was demonstrated countless times at the start of the hobby. Why shouldn't we encourage that revitalization?

And if everyone is just stung by a blanket dismissal of recent work, and is taking it as a personal insult... jeez. This isn't high school. You're free to ignore this and make whatever you like, groundbreaking or not. Go ahead and prove us wrong.

Voila, no need for a percieved "groundbreaking" video. Nevermind the ego boost that goes with making something popular.

This is such an odd argument in favor of complacency, I'm not even sure how to respond to it. "Everything was never really that good, so we don't have to beat ourselves up for not matching the cleverness of previous creators."

[badmartialarts]

Whoa! Wait a second...

It is possible to have new ideas. It was demonstrated countless times at the start of the hobby. Why shouldn't we encourage that revitalization?

I do agree that new ideas are possible, but of course they happened countless times at the start of the hobby...that's kind of a non-statement. As long as you hold that ideas are infinite (which a lot of philosophers would argue about), then it doesn't really matter when in a hobbies lifetime they happen but, I mean, the first video to play a scene BACKWARDS was a brand new thing at the time and probably got noticed. (Whoa! What editing rig did he use for that?)


As for the rest of your statements, carry on. :O

[Kalium]

I'm sorry, I fail to see how my comment is in any way in conflict with your post.

Basically, I was suggesting that Beo isn't looking hard enough. He's missing the trend for the outliers.

The hobby itself seems to contradict this. Long before the hobby expanded to the scale it's at now, many fewer people were demonstrating greater innovation with fewer resources than what I see now, contradicting your "more people naturally expand the medium in more innovative directions" point.

The barrier to entry was much higher, and thus the demographic was substantially different. Only the really dedicated got into this. It wasn't really possible to make an AMV casually in the way it is now.

Single videos would catch everyone's attention and fascination for YEARS at a time. People spoke about the vids with a sense of AWE. Why don't we do that anymore?

Some of us do. I still appreciate, say, this video. On the whole, however, the scene has fundamentally shifted since then. It's grown substantially, and the barriers to entry have lowered significantly. Taken together, one of the results is a faster pace to the scene. There are more people and more videos, so things don't hold the attention of the whole community for years on end because something new comes along to displace it. You're pining for a smaller scene, with fewer people and fewer videos.

You seem to argue that "goundbreaking" videos don't actually exist, but from personal experience I saw many crop up in the early days of the hobby, seemingly out of nowhere, with no relation to anything around them.

Not quite. I argue that nothing is wholly new. All creativity draws from something before it. If something came out of seemingly nowhere, it's far more likely that you just weren't aware of the influences at work. In the times you speak of, influences external to AMVing were more likely.

And you know what? With existing technology and extant works, very little is entirely without precedent. Beo's "Dead To The World" is another installment in a series of long-form videos. Not the first, and certainly not the last.

It is possible to have new ideas. It was demonstrated countless times at the start of the hobby. Why shouldn't we encourage that revitalization?

Except sitting here and talking about it like this isn't really encouraging things in any substantive manner. For that matter, I remain unconvinced that any 'revitalization' is required. Nobody has convinced me that it's the community at fault, and not just people missing the forest for the trees.

This is such an odd argument in favor of complacency, I'm not even sure how to respond to it. "Everything was never really that good, so we don't have to beat ourselves up for not matching the cleverness of previous creators."

I'm saying that before you can really be in a position to make blanket statements about the entire forest, you need to actually look at the entire forest. Not just the few trees that garner many laurels. I'm also saying that just because you cannot see the predecessors of something does not mean there are none. Lack of proof isn't automatically proof of lack.