Hey Everyone, John Westbrook from Otakon's AMV contest here. Seeing how I've had ample time to recover from the con, and since it's only a couple months before we release the rules for next years contest... I figure I'd open up the floor to any and all comments you have about the contest.
Feel free to say anything you want about any part (the prescreenings, the rules, the overflow screenings, the contest screening, etc) even if you have brought it up before (it won't hurt to repeat yourself). All comments and suggestions are welcome.
I'm very curious to hear what's going through everyones minds.
Please keep it civil.
Link to the Same thread on Otakon's BBS: http://board.otakon.com/viewtopic.php?t=10094
OTAKON (Post-con feedback), Your Input Please
Forum rules
Coordinators who fail to maintain necessary communication with entrants, or provide timely updates on results may be barred from announcing future events.
Coordinators who fail to maintain necessary communication with entrants, or provide timely updates on results may be barred from announcing future events.
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hackerzc
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:44 pm
- Location: Baltimore, MD
OTAKON (Post-con feedback), Your Input Please
Last edited by hackerzc on Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
John Westbrook
Otakon, Fan Parody Dept. Head
Otakon, Fan Parody Dept. Head
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Adv1sor
- Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 3:01 pm
I thought it was great. My sincere thanks to you and your team for putting on such a good show.
My suggestions for next year are: If possible, a larger venue; Clearer definition and tighter enforcement of the categories, (maybe add a category for mixed categories, or would that just end up being another comedy category? Would that be a bad thing?); Given the large turn out in attendance, maybe a longer contest with more AMVs?
An off-the-wall-out-of-the-box kind of suggestion? How about not having any categories at all and, instead, ask the fans to simply vote for their favorite drama, romance, comedy, etc.? Let the fans decide which amvs fit into which categories? Decide the order shown by random number?
Again, my thanks to everyone involved. I am looking forward to next year.
My suggestions for next year are: If possible, a larger venue; Clearer definition and tighter enforcement of the categories, (maybe add a category for mixed categories, or would that just end up being another comedy category? Would that be a bad thing?); Given the large turn out in attendance, maybe a longer contest with more AMVs?
An off-the-wall-out-of-the-box kind of suggestion? How about not having any categories at all and, instead, ask the fans to simply vote for their favorite drama, romance, comedy, etc.? Let the fans decide which amvs fit into which categories? Decide the order shown by random number?
Again, my thanks to everyone involved. I am looking forward to next year.
Pray 4 peace! Not an AMV, something you can do to help!
The fastest growing source of anime quotes on the web. Plus up-to-date anime news. (pass it on)
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Ashyukun
- Medicinal Leech
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:53 pm
- Location: KY
- Contact:
I think the #1 issue on most people's minds will be the size of the venue and/or the number of showings. I would very much like to see the contest held in a larger venue if one is available. I've heard that the Arena was being considered- and that would be 12 kinds of cool if we could have the main contest showing there- but I realize that's something of a 'pie-in-the-sky' option, and that it remaining in the BCC is far more likely. It will be interesting to see how the decisions play out next year as far as setup and space allocation go. Personally I think it would be really nice to have the old Main Events back on Friday Night for the main contest showing (while I'm dreaming, I'd like to see MAT3K brought back as well 
). But if we are left with no rooms larger than we had this year, I think having at least one more showing than we had would be good to ensure that everyone who wants to see the contest can. I've rarely seen a room with AMVs being shown not get filled up pretty quickly, so it definitely wouldn't be wasted space.
Another topic that saw lots of attention this year (more so than in the past, I believe) was the topic of the deadline and its timing & malleability. My personal thoughts on it are such: announce the deadline as soon as you can figure out when it should be, make it as close to the convention as possible allowing the necessary time for the pre-screenings and the compilation of the contest, and stick to it. I'm a big fan of following rules- and a deadline is a rule. Many people also know that I'm traditionally quite bad about procrastinating and rushing to finish things up right before the deadline- but if I can't pull it together in time, that's my own fault for having not planned ahead properly and made sure I could make it in time. Extensions are nice, to be sure- but I also think they're somewhat unfair to the people who actually worked hard to get things done on time, only to find out that people who didn't were being given an extra chance.
Along these lines, I would also like to voice my opinion that the categories & rules regarding them should be more rigidly enforced. There were two videos in the contest this year that while both were quite good quality-wise, should not have been allowed in to the contest itself because they fell far more under the definition of Fan Parodies and not AMVs, and the contest rules are quite clear on this. Furthermore, there was at least one specific case IMO of a video being in <i>entirely</i> the wrong category. Sometimes, there's leeway in interpreting what category a video belongs in- but in this particular case the video did not match up with any of the criteria for the category it was in. I realize the logistical reasons for it being left where it was, and that the video was quite cute and clever- but at the same time I thought it patently sucked for the videos that actually <i>belonged</i> in that category but were overshadowed by it. Sometimes, being in a position of authority means having to make decisions that may not make everyone happy, like moving a video from where an editor submitted it. Most I think when faced with a reasonable explanation would simply agree, but even if not I don't think it's fair to just leave a video in the wrong category because the editor refuses to consent to its being moved.
Addressing Adv1sor's suggestion of the 'no category' approach, I'd honestly suggest against it- with experience to back me up. The first few years Anime Boston ran its AMV contest, we tried a similar approach- the videos were not segregated by their content category but into groups based on the experience of the editors (Novice, Journeyman, Expert- or something along those lines), and the attendees voting had the categories the awards would be given in (Drama, Action, Comedy, etc.) they could check off their votes in. The problem though was that there are a number of videos that fit into multiple categories- and that these videos would get a spread of votes between them that made it really hard to figure out exactly how to compile the votes and decide on a winner, leading to the situation of a very good video that very solidly straddled the line between two categories potentially losing to a video that wasn't as well done or impressive but was solidly in one category. Needless to say, AniBo switched to a more traditional category-driven approach that has worked quite well- with the staff doing the initial pre-judging also making the final rulings on what category a video belongs in. I don't think it would be impossible to come up with a way of handling it fairly- but it would likely involve a lot more work and be a lot more confusing for both the staff and the people voting.
Hopefully things will go well this next year and we'll see a resurgence in the number of entries to the contest.
). But if we are left with no rooms larger than we had this year, I think having at least one more showing than we had would be good to ensure that everyone who wants to see the contest can. I've rarely seen a room with AMVs being shown not get filled up pretty quickly, so it definitely wouldn't be wasted space.Another topic that saw lots of attention this year (more so than in the past, I believe) was the topic of the deadline and its timing & malleability. My personal thoughts on it are such: announce the deadline as soon as you can figure out when it should be, make it as close to the convention as possible allowing the necessary time for the pre-screenings and the compilation of the contest, and stick to it. I'm a big fan of following rules- and a deadline is a rule. Many people also know that I'm traditionally quite bad about procrastinating and rushing to finish things up right before the deadline- but if I can't pull it together in time, that's my own fault for having not planned ahead properly and made sure I could make it in time. Extensions are nice, to be sure- but I also think they're somewhat unfair to the people who actually worked hard to get things done on time, only to find out that people who didn't were being given an extra chance.
Along these lines, I would also like to voice my opinion that the categories & rules regarding them should be more rigidly enforced. There were two videos in the contest this year that while both were quite good quality-wise, should not have been allowed in to the contest itself because they fell far more under the definition of Fan Parodies and not AMVs, and the contest rules are quite clear on this. Furthermore, there was at least one specific case IMO of a video being in <i>entirely</i> the wrong category. Sometimes, there's leeway in interpreting what category a video belongs in- but in this particular case the video did not match up with any of the criteria for the category it was in. I realize the logistical reasons for it being left where it was, and that the video was quite cute and clever- but at the same time I thought it patently sucked for the videos that actually <i>belonged</i> in that category but were overshadowed by it. Sometimes, being in a position of authority means having to make decisions that may not make everyone happy, like moving a video from where an editor submitted it. Most I think when faced with a reasonable explanation would simply agree, but even if not I don't think it's fair to just leave a video in the wrong category because the editor refuses to consent to its being moved.
Addressing Adv1sor's suggestion of the 'no category' approach, I'd honestly suggest against it- with experience to back me up. The first few years Anime Boston ran its AMV contest, we tried a similar approach- the videos were not segregated by their content category but into groups based on the experience of the editors (Novice, Journeyman, Expert- or something along those lines), and the attendees voting had the categories the awards would be given in (Drama, Action, Comedy, etc.) they could check off their votes in. The problem though was that there are a number of videos that fit into multiple categories- and that these videos would get a spread of votes between them that made it really hard to figure out exactly how to compile the votes and decide on a winner, leading to the situation of a very good video that very solidly straddled the line between two categories potentially losing to a video that wasn't as well done or impressive but was solidly in one category. Needless to say, AniBo switched to a more traditional category-driven approach that has worked quite well- with the staff doing the initial pre-judging also making the final rulings on what category a video belongs in. I don't think it would be impossible to come up with a way of handling it fairly- but it would likely involve a lot more work and be a lot more confusing for both the staff and the people voting.
Hopefully things will go well this next year and we'll see a resurgence in the number of entries to the contest.
Bob 'Ash' Babcock
Electric Leech Productions
Electric Leech Productions
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dwchang
- Sad Boy on Site
- Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2002 12:22 am
- Location: Madison, WI
- Contact:
I think Bob pretty much covered my suggestions:
1) Venue - larger and better acoustics.
2) Deadlines - as late as possible and enforced. I am fine if a deadline is enforced so long as it is reasonable. In the past there have been extensions which to me implies that the initial deadline was not the absolute last time we could submit. The deadline has (in the past) been moved later and so long as the later (i.e. last possible, *reasonable for you guys*) deadline was just strictly enforced and known from the start. I'd be fine with it.
3) Categories - I feel there have been many miscategorizations in the last few years and worst, has led to the winning videos (however good), not belonging in the category. This needs to stop. It's not so bad to lose to a great video so long as it's appropriate, but to lose to one purely b/c of fans who are not voting per category (i.e. taking adv. of this ignorance) is just not cool for the competing creator.
I realize Otakon's staff has taken a "The creator is right" stance and not moved things, but I know of other contests that generally move things when they feel it is not the right place. You guys say so yourself in the rules that you have the final say. I would like you guys to exercise this and move things as you see fit. Whether it be to another category or even to fan parodies.
1) Venue - larger and better acoustics.
2) Deadlines - as late as possible and enforced. I am fine if a deadline is enforced so long as it is reasonable. In the past there have been extensions which to me implies that the initial deadline was not the absolute last time we could submit. The deadline has (in the past) been moved later and so long as the later (i.e. last possible, *reasonable for you guys*) deadline was just strictly enforced and known from the start. I'd be fine with it.
3) Categories - I feel there have been many miscategorizations in the last few years and worst, has led to the winning videos (however good), not belonging in the category. This needs to stop. It's not so bad to lose to a great video so long as it's appropriate, but to lose to one purely b/c of fans who are not voting per category (i.e. taking adv. of this ignorance) is just not cool for the competing creator.
I realize Otakon's staff has taken a "The creator is right" stance and not moved things, but I know of other contests that generally move things when they feel it is not the right place. You guys say so yourself in the rules that you have the final say. I would like you guys to exercise this and move things as you see fit. Whether it be to another category or even to fan parodies.
-Daniel
Newest Video: Through the Years and Far Away aka Sad Girl in Space
Newest Video: Through the Years and Far Away aka Sad Girl in Space
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Katrina
- Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 5:08 pm
- Contact:
I submitted to the contest but was ultimately unable to attend the con. So I'll just say my opinions from that end:
First of all, I have no problems with strict deadlines. I know every year there are people who ask for an extension, but quite honestly, you guys give more than enough notice. Even without a specific deadline, creators interested in the contest can guess the general timeframe they have to work in. I would agree with setting a deadline and sticking to it. Otherwise, it gives people the impression that "Well, that's not the *real* deadline. They'll extend it like they always do..."
I was a little dissappointed that my AMV couldn't play at the main contest and went to the overflow room by default because it was a non-completing entry. I can see arguments for keeping the non-competing entries away from the main contest (after all, it might confuse people into thinking they can vote for it, and if it's won before, it's probably been seen by several people already.) Perhaps you could show the top picks of the non-competing entries as people are entering the room waiting for the real contest to start. That would be my only suggestion, because otherwise it really tempts people to simply not mention that their AMV won something already just to get shown.
Overall, I am always impressed at the organization of the contest. You guys handle a lot, and the fact that there's a large group voting on which entries make it in really helps reduce bias from single judges.
(Again, I wasn't actually at the contest. This is my impression of how the AMV's were handled based on what I was told on the mailing list and my previous times entering. If I'm totally off, you can disregard everything I've said... well, I guess you could do that anyway.) ^_^;;
PS Sorry for replying to this two weeks after the fact. I'm not on a-m-v.org that much, so I just now noticed the topic.
First of all, I have no problems with strict deadlines. I know every year there are people who ask for an extension, but quite honestly, you guys give more than enough notice. Even without a specific deadline, creators interested in the contest can guess the general timeframe they have to work in. I would agree with setting a deadline and sticking to it. Otherwise, it gives people the impression that "Well, that's not the *real* deadline. They'll extend it like they always do..."
I was a little dissappointed that my AMV couldn't play at the main contest and went to the overflow room by default because it was a non-completing entry. I can see arguments for keeping the non-competing entries away from the main contest (after all, it might confuse people into thinking they can vote for it, and if it's won before, it's probably been seen by several people already.) Perhaps you could show the top picks of the non-competing entries as people are entering the room waiting for the real contest to start. That would be my only suggestion, because otherwise it really tempts people to simply not mention that their AMV won something already just to get shown.
Overall, I am always impressed at the organization of the contest. You guys handle a lot, and the fact that there's a large group voting on which entries make it in really helps reduce bias from single judges.
(Again, I wasn't actually at the contest. This is my impression of how the AMV's were handled based on what I was told on the mailing list and my previous times entering. If I'm totally off, you can disregard everything I've said... well, I guess you could do that anyway.) ^_^;;
PS Sorry for replying to this two weeks after the fact. I'm not on a-m-v.org that much, so I just now noticed the topic.
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erinfinnegan
- Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:56 am
- Contact:
This is sort of a month-late response... but oh well...
It seemed to me that some of the speakers weren't working during this year's AMV contest. It was really hard to hear any of the dialog in the comedy videos - and I don't remember this being a problem in the past, even in the very same room.
I also thought it was weird that the same room as the previous year was much smaller - was it because the video game room was larger?
It's my understanding that the category-shifting was due to too few entries in certain categories. Instead of changing categories, which seemed to annoy everyone - why not just stick with what you've got? If you only get two good romance videos, only play those two, and don't shuffle a comedy AMV into that category.
I'm in favor of dropping romance entirely from the contest, but that might just be me.
It seemed to me that some of the speakers weren't working during this year's AMV contest. It was really hard to hear any of the dialog in the comedy videos - and I don't remember this being a problem in the past, even in the very same room.
I also thought it was weird that the same room as the previous year was much smaller - was it because the video game room was larger?
It's my understanding that the category-shifting was due to too few entries in certain categories. Instead of changing categories, which seemed to annoy everyone - why not just stick with what you've got? If you only get two good romance videos, only play those two, and don't shuffle a comedy AMV into that category.
I'm in favor of dropping romance entirely from the contest, but that might just be me.
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Squancho
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:27 am
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I tend to agree. I think the majority of AMV viewers would be just as happy with a slightly shorter program of just comedy, action, trailers, and perhaps a new category I'd like to call "Miscellaneous." That would be for the videos which pretty much defy categorization (perfect example: Stop Mocking Me from mexicanjunior, which uses Perfect Blue to the tune of DEVO: Peek-a-boo...super creepy stuff).I'm in favor of dropping romance entirely from the contest, but that might just be me.
It's hard enough to sit through 30 videos anyway, but there are other events or panels I would miss within that 2 - 2 1/2 hours. I also hate having to muck through romantic and dramatic clips that usually run an average of 4m30s each...that's around an hour for those 12 videos. Certainly drama and romance have their own merit in art, but at least to me they're not very entertaining in the context of AMVs.
In the words of Dennis Miller, "of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."
Zenkaikon
AMV Showdown Coordinator
(2013 - 2019)
Asst AMV Showdown Coordinator
(2020 - 2021)
AMV Showdown Coordinator
(2013 - 2019)
Asst AMV Showdown Coordinator
(2020 - 2021)
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erinfinnegan
- Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:56 am
- Contact:
It used to be that if the room wasn't totally packed you could sneak if after the romance catergory - particularily on the 2nd screening of the contest. But with people lining up ahead of time for seats you have to be committed for the duration.deuceloosely wrote:It's hard enough to sit through 30 videos anyway, but there are other events or panels I would miss within that 2 - 2 1/2 hours.
And it's obvious they put romance first because if they put it last people would just leave. How many times do we have to see a video love letter to Belldandy?
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Illia Sadri
- Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2003 6:33 am
- Location: Wisconsin, USA
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except drama and romance by default are at a huge disadvantage. They can really only win in their own categories typically since they tend to be simpler.
no offense but if the add kiddies had their way drama wouldn't be allowed since all they like are all action vids with tons of effects and comedy. Guess which two categories have the most submissions at most cons? Yep, drama and romance. A drama video has to be twice as good as a comedy or dance video just to make it in.
A lot of people do like drama vids. They just get a different response. In my book a good video tells a story. It has gotten me to watch shows I would have never considered. Flashy action vids do very little for me.
Should perhaps drama and romance be sepaertated by a category? Probably. It offers a break with the slower vids. But nixing one of the largest and most competitive categories would be silly.
Part of this is its one of the few categpries that tends to be diverse in music and anime selection. People would complain a lot less about a drama or romance category if it had nothing but naruto or fma or insert whatever popular anime of the time. I have past Ohayocon and Tekkoshocon results to confirm when attendees will 'endure' a drama segment.
Considering that typically a huge chunk of the submissions are romance and drama and sentimental videos, getting rid of it would probably anger editors since their already slim chances of getting in are near nil. And well, lets face it females tend to like romance more than guys and the org is very male dominated. So while some here don't care as much about drama vids, there is a nice chunk of female shoujo fans who eat the stuff up. They just aren't likely to speak up here.
A 2 hour contest is really not a lot to sit through. Many people wait in line for hours for the masquerade and for what is sometimes a several hour show which you may or not be able to hear the participants. I'd be dissapointed if the attention spans are so far down the hole that they cannot endure 5 or 6 entries of romance.
no offense but if the add kiddies had their way drama wouldn't be allowed since all they like are all action vids with tons of effects and comedy. Guess which two categories have the most submissions at most cons? Yep, drama and romance. A drama video has to be twice as good as a comedy or dance video just to make it in.
A lot of people do like drama vids. They just get a different response. In my book a good video tells a story. It has gotten me to watch shows I would have never considered. Flashy action vids do very little for me.
Should perhaps drama and romance be sepaertated by a category? Probably. It offers a break with the slower vids. But nixing one of the largest and most competitive categories would be silly.
Part of this is its one of the few categpries that tends to be diverse in music and anime selection. People would complain a lot less about a drama or romance category if it had nothing but naruto or fma or insert whatever popular anime of the time. I have past Ohayocon and Tekkoshocon results to confirm when attendees will 'endure' a drama segment.
Considering that typically a huge chunk of the submissions are romance and drama and sentimental videos, getting rid of it would probably anger editors since their already slim chances of getting in are near nil. And well, lets face it females tend to like romance more than guys and the org is very male dominated. So while some here don't care as much about drama vids, there is a nice chunk of female shoujo fans who eat the stuff up. They just aren't likely to speak up here.
A 2 hour contest is really not a lot to sit through. Many people wait in line for hours for the masquerade and for what is sometimes a several hour show which you may or not be able to hear the participants. I'd be dissapointed if the attention spans are so far down the hole that they cannot endure 5 or 6 entries of romance.
<a href="http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... banner.jpg[/img]</a>
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erinfinnegan
- Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:56 am
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Hello! I'm a girl! I love shoujo!! I eat up romance! And yet, I can't stand romance AMVs, for the most part, because 90% of them are made by guys who are in love with Belldandy. I also don't like soft rock, so that elimates a lot of romance AMVs.Illia Sadri wrote:Considering that typically a huge chunk of the submissions are romance and drama and sentimental videos, getting rid of it would probably anger editors since their already slim chances of getting in are near nil. And well, lets face it females tend to like romance more than guys and the org is very male dominated. So while some here don't care as much about drama vids, there is a nice chunk of female shoujo fans who eat the stuff up. They just aren't likely to speak up here.
Shojocon had a really decent AMV contest - because the AMVs were made about shows girls like, about male anime characters that girls like.
Here are two of my favorite romance AMVs of all time:
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... hp?v=11203
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... hp?v=16269
I can and have endured 5-6 romance AMVs at Otakon for five years running... but now I'm saying that I've had enough! It's time to put my foot down. I can kill time watching romance AMVs at smaller cons with nothing to do, but guess which cons have dropped that category by popular demand?Illia Sadri wrote:A 2 hour contest is really not a lot to sit through. Many people wait in line for hours for the masquerade and for what is sometimes a several hour show which you may or not be able to hear the participants. I'd be dissapointed if the attention spans are so far down the hole that they cannot endure 5 or 6 entries of romance.