Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

[godix]

I just go by what I hear from the news here. I was referring to the general lack of public support for Pres. Obama in the last poll I had seen when I said "nobody" would want it voted in. I think I may have phrased that wrong, my bad. I'm pretty sure the support dropped after the whole "public funded health care is evil" thing went on, so I was guessing they were related.
If I'm wrong feel free to correct me, it's better I know what's actually know what's going on then make up my own conclusions. lol

A) a presidents numbers always go down over the first year or so. At the start, the supporters have hopes of fucking miracles happening and the foes give some benefit of the doubt that he won't be as bad as they fear. No president can do the miracles so his supporters get disillusioned. The foes usually find something to get pissy about, they are his foes after all. So it's pretty typical a presidents numbers fall. It doesn't mean shit though. The *ONLY* poll that makes a bit of difference is on Nov 4th every four years to elect the President. Other than that, fuck it, he's gonna be there until the end of his term regardless. Besides, there's a reason America isn't a direct democracy and protects against tyranny of the majority. The majority is *NOT* automatically right.

B) It could be argued that a lot of Obama's loss of support isn't that Americans don't support health care reform of some sort or another, it's that Obama doesn't seem to support it. Obama has been talking about health care since before he was even elected. Now seven months after his taking office and we *STILL* don't have anything solid to debate. There are four plans being crafted in Congress now, none of which agree with each other and none of which are ready to vote on. Which of the four does Obama support? Who knows. What's Obama's plan? There isn't one. What features does Obama consider vital? I dunno, and I doubt Obama does either. How much will it cost and how will it be paid? No one has figured that out yet. For a man who talks about health care so much, it's astounding how little he's acting on it. If he was serious and knew WTF he was doing, he would have gone to key Congressmen ahead of time and said 'This is what I insist is in it. You can add to it as needed to make deals or whatever, but here's the bare minimum that I refuse to negotiate away.' So at least some of the drop in support is that people who follow politics are starting to realize that Obama fucked up right off the bat.

[BasharOfTheAges]

The health care thing says a lot about the U.S. First, you have the ultra-conservatives spewing complete bullshit - making up all sorts of things to scare the right-wing bible-thumpers into action. On the other side you have the entire democratic party split into several camps, each wanting or liking different parts and absolutely hating others. Then you have the general public that, as the general public is wont to do over most issues of social parity, divide themselves into two camps. Those with money and healthcare that don't want to pay for those without, and those without money or healthcare (or both) that very much want it and wouldn't care if those that were better off then them paid for it.

All the loud talking heads and issue-inventing on both sides just give more talking-point style rhetoric to any "debate" in Washington. It's all fluff. Any political issue that involves taxes is entirely based on the underlying root issue that a lot of old(er) people with money think that they shouldn't be paying for the benefit of others, a large number of young(er) people without money think they should, and the super-rich (that actually have the money) either ignore the whole thing, buy politicians, or start charities.

Any issue or topic is just a new venue to rehash the same conflicting viewpoints. Most modern issues that come up in politics are just proxy debates. We fight back and forth on stemcell research because pro-lifers are butthurt they lost roe v. wade. We fight over textbooks because of past victories on both sides. We fight the same damn debates over and over as mini proxy wars so we never lose an argument, just simply prolong the outcome by splitting hairs, changing terms, and fighting on until we die. No wonder there's voter apathy and a general hatred of politics... it's like a damn internet flame war that goes on forever.

[EvaFan]

I think its funnier to show the national debt in numbers then talk about health care so here goes:

Last time I checked the national debt was 11.some number trillion dollars. K so now the math.

11,000,000,000,000/304,000,000 = 36,184$ per person?

So anyone got 36,184$ lying around some where?

America needs to learn that you can't solve money problems by borrowing more money.

As for everything else in this thread/about this thread, refer to sig.

[Kionon]

So anyone got 36,184$ lying around some where?

Yes. In my Certificates of Deposit.

I strongly believe in a public option, preferably one that allows any American to choose to be on the same plan as Congress gets. I certainly have no current need of a public option (although I am on the Japanese public option), I can certainly afford my own. I, however, am willing to have my overseas income taxed at a higher rate in order to see this public option exist. As someone who is extremely well off, it is the least I can do and still sleep soundly at night. My reasons are very personal, and have a lot to do with how the private sector treated my biological father before he finally succumbed to a heart condition he battled all his life.

I frankly do not care how Congress gets it done, what deals have to be made. I just want an option that every American has the right to be covered by. And fuck the tight-fisted bastards who do not see that social welfare is a duty and an obligation of citizenship, and not some sort of optional "do it when I feel like" choice.

[EvaFan]

You seem to of misinterpreted the means of my last post. I'm not against a "public option" or healthcare at all.

IMO: If the government was to control anything I think it would of been healthcare from the very beginning. There should not be profit when it comes to a person’s life/wellbeing, ever. This is why we have firemen, policemen, etc... I would consider this a "serving the public peace" job therefore government controlled to the point of they pay doctors just like they pay policemen etc. and run non-profit hospitals. There would be pay-grades for different kinds of doctors etc... Honestly I’d rather just pay more tax then having to pay a healthcare premium all together.

I'm simply saying the thinking: "Ok, how much money we gonna need to fix this problem" instead of "Ok, what can we do about this problem before bringing money into the equation" seems to be the american ideology.

[Kionon]

I wasn't directing that at you, I was, in a way, directing it past you. A public option need not cost us a higher debt if we would just stop bitching about paying for it. That was my whole point. In a way I am advocating income distribution of sorts, but not in the way the right wing would have you believe. If you have money, you should be willing to give up a portion of it to help your fellow citizens with, as you say, basics. I believe in a certain basic level of care that is a right of a citizens, and is the fundamental duty of the citizenry as a whole to provide. In the end, we will see a Return on Investment, if that's what the neocons need, because people with healthcare nets and basic preventative care are more productive, but I believe this should be, must be framed as a constitutional argument: the United States was created to provide for the general welfare, and we're not doing a very good job of it.

[godix]

Opposition to the public option isn't always about money. I don't support a public option because I've already seen how bad the government is at medical care and I don't hate humanity enough to want to inflict that on them. Due to my wife, over the last four years I've had close dealings with medicare, medicaid, SSI, and SSD. At times I have honestly wondered if the government sat down, looked at my wife's paperwork, and said 'Hey, she's bipolar and has suicidal tendencies. Maybe if we fuck with her long enough she'll kill herself and save us the expense of helping her'. Intellectually I realize no one in the government did that, but if someone did then they couldn't have done a better job screwing with her than they were already doing. I'll spare you the details, but the long and short of it is that it took three years of constant fighting, two appeals, and sixteen hospitalizations before the government would admit my wife has a problem. Oddly enough, when I became unemployed because I missed too much work caring for my wife, the dept of unemployment understood and worked with me on it. I actually had to go to a government dept that has nothing to do with health care to get any assistance resulting from my wife's health care issues.

That being said, I am a huge supporter of medical reform. Don't have the government provide health care, but more (and different) regulation of private health care is desperately needed. Unfortunately, the two groups that really need their balls crushed by the rocks of regulation won't be reformed. Both the pharmaceutical industry and the lawyers buy off too many politicians for anything effective to be done about them. Knocking the insurance industry about the head is a good start though, and actually might end up happening.

[downwithpants]

Those with money and healthcare that don't want to pay for those without, and those without money or healthcare (or both) that very much want it and wouldn't care if those that were better off then them paid for it.

Actually republican congressmen are mainly from the south and midwest, which are made up of lower-income constituents than those of the blue states of the north and west coast. the lower income population shows more opposition a social healthcare system while the higher income population is more in favor.

It's like the issue of national security after 9/11. The Midwest and South were for dept of homeland security, sacrificing privacy rights for national security, etc, while most of the coastal states, where a terrorist would most likely enter the US, were opposed.

I'm simply saying the thinking: "Ok, how much money we gonna need to fix this problem" instead of "Ok, what can we do about this problem before bringing money into the equation" seems to be the american ideology.

it's not a question about how much money you can throw at health care. you can throw all the money you want at health care, and you will still need more money to handle treatment costs, research and upgrading equipment. it's like asking, "how much do we have to pay to stop getting sick," it's impossible, there is no limit. it's not like a fire, where once you put out the flames your job is done. we're trying to maintain a decent level of care without letting costs skyrocket.

while i do recognize that guaranteeing coverage for all citizens can reduce medical costs by promoting preventative care and reducing costly ED visits, i don't support a government-run option for reasons similar to godix's. 9/10 government workers spend their entire working day playing solitaire. i would rather receive care from a system that is motivated by profit. one of the current problems is that the current system profits by providing treatment, not by ensuring patient wellness. so doctors that overprescribe will just make off with more money.

[guy07]

Thread name fix'd.

[Kionon]

while i do recognize that guaranteeing coverage for all citizens can reduce medical costs by promoting preventative care and reducing costly ED visits, i don't support a government-run option for reasons similar to godix's. 9/10 government workers spend their entire working day playing solitaire. i would rather receive care from a system that is motivated by profit. one of the current problems is that the current system profits by providing treatment, not by ensuring patient wellness. so doctors that overprescribe will just make off with more money.

Godix and I have discussed our opposing views elsewhere in a very detailed fashion. Suffice to say, the trouble he has had with is wife, is the trouble my family had with my dad. The private sector refused to help him. Not because they couldn't, but because they wouldn't. Luckily my mother was hired by Illinois and had a state plan the covered her as well as both my dad and me.

The private sector is too motivated by profits. They can do it better, but they refuse to. Give us a public option so we can say to the industry, "Oh really? Well fuck you, then I'll just go your new competitor, the public option, even though I could afford more reasonable coverage from you if you bothered to provide it." You think government workers hardly work? I don't think the many hydra heads of the insurance industry have done very much work at all.