Where is our world going?

[Kionon]

There is a ton here I disagree with, I'll take it as far as I can. Some of this I take very seriously. Jokes about Serious Business Studios aside, some of Atari's ideas are ones I would rather leave the org than have to deal with. They are among my largest issues with the org as it stands.

Yea, I know you're involved in AMV stuff at cons at what not and I dont know how many YT people make it into your contests, but I have seen YT people starting to make their ways into the Con scene. Mainly, the Re-Evo crowd seems to be really pushing into a few.

When Re-Evo had its announcement flood, I downloaded and watched, and then commented on almost every single one of them. I respect their editing skills, but they need to work on pre-processing. A lot of errors they made, as a group, are ones that come from the disparity in standards that Bashar speaks to. They clearly have talent; they just need to do some really simple things to polish their creations. Once here, we noticed, and we told them.

AMVOrgasm's Shuga Chara video is one of my favorites, honestly, and my kids (students) like it too. It is clear that Re-Evo folks GIVE A DAMN, however, that does not mean they are suddenly exempted from the same beginning level basic standards we all have to learn.

The Org is a video driven site because videos are the most important asset of this site, getting videos on it, should be the easiest thing to do.

That is precisely the attitude that separates those from before Golden Donut and those after. This not a video hosting site. It is a catalog with forums that act as a locus of sharing that does happen to have video hosting available. The most important assets are the group of editors and their willingness to GIVE A DAMN. Method of upload is immaterial.

Honestly what really gets under my skin is the attitude that 'We dont want new people. We dont want newbs.'

Jokes are one thing, but as clearly stated above, I do not believe that at all. I want talented, motivated beginners. What I don't want is stupid newbs. There is a big difference between motivated and ignorant, and willingly ignorant and annoying. We get them on the org all the time, even without having to visit hosatchel. And as I say, they can frankly go away and grow up and come back when they're serious. I shouldn't be forced to coddle them. That's not my job. And if I DID coddle anyone, it would be my own students, who I have a personal attachment to: any patience or tolerance I have is reserved for them.

If you or any other member have a problem with that, then go make your own little elitist AMV community for you guys to hang out in. Honestly, I know people have made a lot of close friends here and in some cases, have met their spouses here, but this isnt a social networking site. IT'S AN AMV SITE. If we make friends and lovers here along the way, great. If you see this as your own little playground for you and your buddies, IT'S NOT.

You say you have respect, but you are showing zero respect for the history involved here. This is how the org developed. As I mentioned above, it was created to facilitate the combining of several different individuals and studios known to Phade at the time. I was there. I remember the IRC conversations about it between Phade, Quu, and myself. Just as I can imagine that Phade spoke about it other channels and other venues like the mailing list. All in the hopes of making it easier for us to find each other and share not just our videos but our techniques and our aspirations.

The org is very much about social networking. Social networking of editors. If you don't understand that, you miss the point.

Honestly guys, that kind of attitude doesnt only alienate the new people, because unlike you guys, most of us arent dickwads and actually care about people and nurturing them into good editors. This attitude only alienates us and if you want proof of that read Chiikaboom's Profile. Looks like the general, dicky attitude caused you guys to lose one of your most established and award winning members. Sorry Bashar, but it looks like YT editor will be taking home the Con awards soon. Honestly, after reading some of the posts in this thread. I respect her decision and dont blame her for leaving.

I have no knowledge of what was or was not done to Chiika. I have nothing but the utmost respect for her, and I can understand why she might be willing to leave. Many of your expressed opinions are reasons, if actually successful, that would lead me to leave. I want no part of that org.

1-Make uploading and Searching AMVs easier.

Sure, okay. Totally unnecessary, but fine. It won't alter how I use the org.

2- Get the main social activity/feedback off the forums

No. Absolutely not. Never in a million years would I support the below:

There should be a place for public comment on every video. You should be allowed to make comments anytime and as many times as you want. I cant tell you how many videos I've QCed and later on just wanted to go back and say more to the editor. Besides that, this allows the other 700,000+ members who dont visit the forums to find more value in being on the Org. It allows for more people to interact with each other and for more feedback to be given on video.

This is what I have been fighting against for years. It is my largest fear. It is precisely what I worried was in the works once we added stars and quick comments. Please don't do this. We already have two proper forums for commentary. The private one is opinions. I like opinions. I like to write them on videos I think really mean a lot to me. I like to get them even more if they have been well thought out. The public option is the announcement forum. When I post there, I tell people, "Hey, come tell everyone what you think. I'm strong enough to take it." If I don't want public commentary, I will not post to the announcement forum. You are taking that right to have that commentary private away from me. Again, please don't do this.

It will also separate the 'Pros' from the 'newbs,' but still allow the newbs to hang around a developed community. One thing about the Tube is that newbs can stay hidden from the pros. Just like how people who dont announce their videos here can stay hidden from the 'pros' of the main community. They have their video uploaded, but chances are, the only people that are going to watch them are the people that search for them.

Profile Comments would also help with this.

As is their right! If the "newbs" want to come forward, they have every right to do so. Who are you to force them? I also don't want my profile to be some sort of myspace or facebook page. I don't want random members I have no connection with posting shit on my profile. No thanks.

The Org is deeply Editor-based right now.

Yes, it is. And that's how it should stay. This is a community for editors, by editors. If that changes, I am out of here. That's what I love about the org.

4- Promote Videos
It'd be pretty cool if we could get something like a 'Video of the Week' thing going on. Basically, people could get the option to 'promote' a video by clicking some sort of button after watching a video that's based on a votes system. Every week the votes are automatically counted and the video with the most votes, is featured for a week on the front page. It'd be nice if the video was actually embeded onto the front page so that people could stream it quickly.

Why? Do you realise how much you are asking of the staff? I run #amv-review, I would be happy to allow you to host a review session. I encourage everyone to do so. No one has bothered recently. Quadir kept it running, but it pretty much fell apart under me mostly because of my difference in timezone. However, if we could get more than one group running, that's fine. Power to the people here. You want to get some sort of "video of the week" thing going, do it yourself. I would even help as much as I could. Don't put this on the staff. Man up (gender not withstanding).

Right now, we promote the Top 10%, top rated and new vid on the block. But they're not really emphasized on the layout.

No we don't. I could care less about the 10%, top rated, or new vid on the block. I never even really bother looking at my member's page. Nor do I have any interest in being forced to view them. I pretty much go straight to the announcement forum for new videos, and I like it that way. It's great regional sites are doing stuff they want to do. I support that. Good for them. We are not them.

5- Reorganize the Site Layout
Let's be real for a second here. This site was made in the year 2000. That was almost 10 years ago. The site has evolved since then with a lot of new features and Web standards have risen. The layout is outdated, intimidating, and unintuitive. It's cluttered. There are a lot of features that are visible at all times, but arent used by members most of the time. I'm editor, but I dont need to be able to see the 'Editors' section all the time because I dont always need to edit my videos or upload new ones. Neither do I always need to change my profile or adjust my account settings. The list goes on.

I like it just the way it is. It's simple, clean, easy to understand. If it ain't broke, and it's not, don't fix it.If I do want to access any portion of the site, I know precisely how to do it. It's quite intuitive. Unlike all these new sites that are indeed cluttered, graphics heavy. The site is precisely how I like it. I've even come to like the blue and orange combination. There is no reason to go to something like hosatchel or myspace, which I think hurts my eyes.

We have a Site Store again. Instead of it being just another button amongst many buttons on the menu, you can promote it more. Make mini advertisements for the store. Encourage people to visit it and buy from there.

I will donate money just to avoid this. I don't even need merchandise. This is not a commercial venture, and it should not be seen as one.

The Guides are completely useless to me, but I still have to be annoyed with seeing it on the menu. I'd like the option to completely get rid of it, like how YT lets me customize what I see on my front page and where I see it.

Again, think of the programming involved here. You're asking for french doors when someone just built you a free house. Really? Really? I think this is unnecessary.

There are two places on the Menu option about journals. I can view my own journal and then I can look at my journal buddies. Most social interaction like this is located on the Profile pages of video sites. When YT had the bulletin board feature. I could view the bulletins of my friends and make a bulletin in the same place. It condensed the topic of bulletins all together.

Already addressed. I don't want these abilities. You say above this isn't a social network site, then you ask for lots and lots of features that are hallmarks of, guess what? Social networking sites! In the end I wouldn't care less about a lot of the stuff like that you suggest, as long as I can disable me seeing it all, no one can post to my profile without my permission, and people cannot just randomly, fly-by-night, post public commentary on my videos without my permission. If this is implemented without protections, it truly will be the end.

[Panky]

I believe that while things could be made easier as LittleAtari says, like uploading videos ( and surely would help out some users ), it doesn't draw anybody back when trying to upload a video. I mean, I believe most of the persons (maybe not all) after showing some interest for the ORG and its purpose, and doing the effort of signing up, would continue all the way to uploading (can't remember my personal case, but it must have been something like that).
That doesn't mean, by any way, that a simpler uploading system won't make it easier for already registered users, or attract more people in, even those that didn't like the FTP proccess and left. We all know that when you're trying to attract a larger number of users you gotta do everything you can to make it easier.

Again, I don't see why you're saying that there is something like a resistance for newbies; why? I actually don't see people bashing threads because they are esentially new, it might be because they didn't read the rules or they just wanted to throw shit to the video itself. IIRC, when I came I got good feedback for my videos, and wasn't able to see such difference you are all talking about. And I'm not all that active lately, but I can't see it either. A good (solution?) might be to remove the signup date of users, give them anonymous nicks; crap, I don't know, something like equality doesn't exist in the world and I doubt it would in the ORG. But longevity on the site should be the last reason why someone should shove someone off.

And heck, what's that hate against YT? I can't remember well where I took this site from, but surely it wasn't from entering AMV ORG or something like that in google, I probably saw a link in YT and entered from there. They aren't what they are judging where they came from, but for what they've done.

Bah, I don't think there's too much to add up. I don't actually see too much of a crisis going up on the ORG.

PD:

Fouth, we're fucking assholes. There are nice users here or there, but by and large the orgs attitude to pretty much anyone not in our selected group of elites is distinctly towards the 'go fuck yourself' end of things.

can I join that group?

[ragre]

I think there should be a place where newbies can introduce themselves :/ Cos when people first sign up, they're looking for the "Greetings Thread" (at least, I know I was) or something, where they get to meet people, introduce themselves and integrate themselves in the community. But the only way they actually can integrate themselves is either by making a kick-ass AMV or by posting a lot until they get to know people. And even then, most people would just ignore them

[Bauzi]

I like Kionon's point of view, but I more sympathize with Little Atari's ideas.

Times changed, things changed and if we don't change we might die out. Do we really need this (sometimes extreme) conservative attiude? There are so many things that we can improve and make fun for more people. What's wrong in giving more people reasons to stay here and get more fun out of the site with less effort? Why can't we make it more accessible and just go with the time?

I still really don't get an answer why we don't enable public viewing/downloading without registration.

and about the website navigation: I use this site since 2004 and it still takes way too long to finde the things that I'm looking for in the navigation.

The influence of YT is enormous. Most new editors will definatly come from streaming sites. That's for sure.



Redefine this site's mission:
Is it really only catoling videos? Is it about shareing opinions? Downloading/Watching videos? A social network? A place to communicate for editors?

Make it clear what it is TODAY and than look for what could be changed for good.

[EvaFan]

Fouth, we're fucking assholes. There are nice users here or there, but by and large the orgs attitude to pretty much anyone not in our selected group of elites is distinctly towards the 'go fuck yourself' end of things.

can I join that group?

I think you just failed the entrance exam.

On topic:

Attitude has little to do with anything. People are so used to sugarcoated/blanketed/friendly statements from everyone that they come here get some respectable opinions that still can be blatantly summed up to: "This video sucked." and go back to the tube where everything is “ZOMG BEST VIDEO EVAR, MAKE MOAR VIDZ PL0X!” regardless of how bad it really is. Those same people usually aren’t even willing to learn, they just want to continue doing what they are doing and are fueled by these comments. "Assholes" make or break new people with their comments, they either try to learn/become better or just go back to whoever likes their stuff that was considered shit hence the act of discouraging new editors. I won't deny there seems to be a clique of editors around here that are often intimidating but you got those wherever you go, here it's just more easier for them to find you obviously.

As for the FTP stuff. I pretty much agree with the stuff that has been said long ago. If people aren't even willing to learn how to upload a video using FTP then they most likely aren't willing to learn how to utilize tools available to become a better editor in the first place. There are those select few who just have problems using ftp but that’s gotta be a minority and can usually still be solved with some effort.

Don't really care what this site becomes or what it is. In the end, its a site dedicated to the creation and discussion of AMV's. This is not the main focus of the tube therefore it's not what I use. Although the average intellect/opinion here over the tube also has something to do with it admittedly...

IMO: If this site ever got removed I'd probably quit this hobby all-together even if the tube was still going, that's how much I prefer it.

[Kionon]

I think there should be a place where newbies can introduce themselves :/ Cos when people first sign up, they're looking for the "Greetings Thread" (at least, I know I was) or something, where they get to meet people, introduce themselves and integrate themselves in the community. But the only way they actually can integrate themselves is either by making a kick-ass AMV or by posting a lot until they get to know people. And even then, most people would just ignore them

The best way to introduce yourself is to get involved. Offering opinions on videos you download or adding commentary to announcement threads is a great way of approaching the subject of your introduction. In fact, this is probably preferable to just announcing your first video. If you show you care about the videos of others, they will be more likely to care about yours.

[CodeZTM]

Ok, just a few things. As a website designer, what most of you are asking in terms of design [upload button, design layout changes, ect.] would takes months of hard work from our programmers WHO DON'T GET PAID. And let me be honest. If I were in their situation, there was no way in a million years that I would do it if the old system was working fine and looks nice.

2- Get the main social activity/feedback off the forums

Why? That's what I [and I'm sure many others] LIKE about this place. To be honest, the main social activity takes place in Donator's forum... Which, is why we donate... O_o I'm the first to admit that MEP forum has social activity too, but hey, I see nothing wrong with that. IF new people want to join in, we certainly don't stop them.

And AMV Annoucements forum? Uh-uh... I hate the star system/QC system, and I never use it unless something just REALLY made me want to leave a comment. I'm more likely to just go through and distribute 3 stars to everything and get back to downloading. I understand the necessity to remove/rehaul that feature, but let's be serious. Remove Feedback from AMV Annoucnements forum, and you lose pretty much the ONLY source of feedback anywhere.

As for the FTP stuff. I pretty much agree with the stuff that has been said long ago. If people aren't even willing to learn how to upload a video using FTP then they most likely aren't willing to learn how to utilize tools available to become a better editor in the first place. There are those select few who just have problems using ftp but that’s gotta be a minority and can usually still be solved with some effort.

Pretty much sums up my feelings. Did I mention in filezilla it takes a total of 4-5 mouseclicks to get it functional? I mean, seriously, it's not THAT hard. And if FTP uploading is really causing people "with great potential" to leave us, then it's their own fault.

Did I mention the help forum already? People get LOADS of questions there weekly on FTP and various things.

I just don't honestly see how exactly we're "alienating" new members. The only ones we "alienate" or "ignore" are people who don't have an interest in learning the hobby, fixing editing mistakes in the technical department, or who are just plain rude to constructive criticism.

I pretty much see my argument as... "If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The org's a little broken, so fix what's broken, but keep yer damn hands off the stuff that works just fine".

)___________________

And... Ok.... AS much as I hate having to admit this, I wish there was an "INtroduction" thread. That is one way I can succumb to a little bit of Vivaldi's argument. A introduction forum would let them potential newcomers feel more welcome and able to easily transition into the forum life.

___________

See what a monster you've created JudgeHolden? I hope yer happy. =D

[Kai Stromler]

What's wrong in giving more people reasons to stay here and get more fun out of the site with less effort? Why can't we make it more accessible and just go with the time?

I still really don't get an answer why we don't enable public viewing/downloading without registration.

The answer to this is potentially what Koop referred to as the .org dying in more ways than one (there may be some other inside baseball that I'm not aware of, but this is what's been moaned about in the past). It is summed up by the red called-out area in the graphic below.



The pic is yesterday's stats; the current version is public information here. If this is as unsustainable as it looks, the .org is in a catch-22: if we don't get more users, we can't get the donations required to keep the Donut running, but if donations continue to fail to keep pace with use, additional hosting and bandwidth costs will cause the financial situation to get more upside-down faster.

Any proposal to open up access needs to address the fact that this is a pure DIY operation. We don't have Google's deep pockets backstopping us, or (as far as I know) the ability to layer ads on top of preview videostreams as an additional source of revenue. There are ads on the search, video info, and download pages, but the great bulk of operating expenses are paid out of donations. Without "you" "do(ing) it", there is no DIY.

As to why this is, godix's trends graph is pretty explanatory for a start. Hosatchel is easier. The anime boom is over. We're in an economic crunch. Anime fandom is skewing younger, towards people whose ability to donate is less. All possible reasons, maybe all true and acting in concert. Because we made the decision to open up local hosting to everyone, this economic vulture is sitting on our shoulders right now, and this entire conversation is carried out in the shadow of that pale companion.

--K

[Kionon]

Step 1) Kill Local, or at least make it more restrictive.
Step 2) Ask Kionon to provide more than $12. He will. BUT only if you ASK.

[Nya-chan Production]

I correct myself:

Deep hell.