selling AMVs?

zenmetsu · Post by **zenmetsu** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:23 am

i've been lurking off and on around here for a long time, rarely wanting to post. but i'm very surprised that no one has been talking about this, so i might as well bring up the topic. this may ruffle some feathers, but i can't apologize for that.

ok, those who went to katsucon know that vicbond was selling dvds of his amvs at the con. i kind of assume he was selling them at cost, but i don't know what price he set. something about this just hits me in the pit of my stomach. i mean, sure, lots of amv authors hand out cds of their videos at cons, and offer them for download, and send them over instant messenger. but selling them? it doesn't really matter how high quality the media is or what the cost is, if money changes hands then it's selling. i'd always thought it taboo to sell amvs.

the moment vic stepped up to the mic after recieving one of his three awards and effectively said "buy my dvd" has to be one of the most frightening moments in my time as an amv fan and amv author. did it suddenly become okay to sell material you don't have the rights to? even if your moral glands are mostly nonfunctional, you should know that moment itself was dangerous to the community, and may have set a dangerous precedent.

if you don't know why this is dangerous, i'll explain. we can't forget that amvs use copyrighted material, anime and music. even if a series hasn't been picked up for a domestic release, international copyright does forbid its unauthorized use. we don't have the permission to use the materials we use in amvs. if our amvs ever leave our hands, whether in real life or online, we've actually committed a crime. we can't forget that. the reason anime companies haven't cracked down on the amv community is, i assume, because amvs are probably good advertising. as for the music industry, they probably have bigger fish to fry. the companies have so far looked the other way. if the topic ever comes up in court, however, they can't just "allow" amvs to exist as they are, because they'd lose their copyright.

all well and good, right? but the companies holding the copyrights for these animes and these songs would not sit still if they found out that amv authors are not simply being fans anymore and are instead selling media containing the companies' copyrighted material. i mean, how far do you think we can edge into these companies' copyrights before they will feel as though they must defend themselves?

i think the line has been crossed, and it scares the hell out of me. the anime companies are well within their rights to prevent amv contests at conventions. they're well within their rights to shut us all down if they feel it's necessary. at an industry panel i attended at a convention last year, someone whom i believe was from adv was asked what his company thinks of amvs. he replied that he wished people wouldn't make amvs, because then the companies wouldn't have to worry about what it means for them.

how are they supposed to look the other way when we're now selling these things? i certainly don't want to take the chance.

i didn't want to sound like i was on a soapbox. but regardless of whether or not you believe the companies would ever crack down on the amv community, this what i really wanted to yell out at katsucon: you're selling material that you do not have the rights to. that is wrong. end of story.

that was a lot of typing. am i alone in feeling this is wrong? has anyone thought about any of this? is anyone else worried about what it means?

dokidoki · Post by **dokidoki** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:34 am

There has been at least one huge debate over this in the past. (after last year's Fanime) Basically, it's much easier to eat the cost of a CD than a DVD. (note that at the time of that argument, DVD-Rs cost more)

I will now let the counterarguments and flaming begin.

dokidoki · Post by **dokidoki** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:35 am

(er, not that I condone flaming, but it seems inevitable.

)

jonmartensen · Post by **jonmartensen** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:39 am

Oh, you know you want the flames to start, doki

Zarxrax · Post by **Zarxrax** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:43 am

Well, It would be terribly expensive for him to just give out free dvds to people... I mean they cost like 35 bucks for a 10 pack last time I bought some at best buy. As long as its just covering the media cost, I see no problem with it. You're not selling the content, you're selling the media.

MistyCaldwell · Post by **MistyCaldwell** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:48 am

I can give an opinion without flaming right? It's not that inevitable.

I remember reading an arguement about this on the older forum. For diplomatic reasons I won't mention the specifics but it always seems to boil down to the line that if you are selling them at cost then it shouldn't be a big deal.

I already knew that once you distribute your amvs, you are breaking the rules but you aren't really hurting anybody.

As long as companies look the other way and no one gets any legal guns out we can keep doing it. But...you could look at it like mp3s and file sharing. It only took a couple big names to make it a big deal and then a lot of things changed. People still share of course but some countries and organizations go after the people who made the file sharing programs.

That could happen with amvs but on the other hand, you have AX which is pretty big and still manages to show amvs at a convention. I am personally more worried about conventions losing the ability to show (that is where the majority of people see the amvs) than anything but what you say does require some looking into the legal aspects and if dvd authoring may make more copyright holders take notice.

Who here has passed the bar?

FATTY_VM · Post by **FATTY_VM** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:50 am

agreed ... if its non profit .. its entirely fine .... in my eyes ... but when it is being sold for profits by the creator .. without the liscense agreements .. i dont believe it should be allowed or condoned.

dokidoki · Post by **dokidoki** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 2:04 am

jon/Misty: heheh. Before the thread is out, someone will flame someone.

zenmetsu: Some things I didn't touch on before...
"he replied that he wished people wouldn't make amvs, because then the companies wouldn't have to worry about what it means for them"

Interesting. On the other hand, Brad DeMoss said that an ADV employee told him that they watched his Eva/Episode 1 trailer all the time.

I've seen this argument before over fansubs. (ie: "fansub ethics" with respect to tape distribution) Ignoring SASE for the moment, since fansub distros would take money to cover the cost of the tape and shipping to get fansubs to people, people called it "buying fansubs". One friend of mine hated this usage, and preferred the term "requesting fansubs", since the money is for the tape and shipping, not the contents.

Furthermore, arguments were argued over how much could fansub distributors charge for? Just tape/shipping? Labels as well? Ink? Wear and tear on VCRs? New equipment?

In the following post, Vic says he is "making a very negligable profit" in order to "[make] up for the cost of the DVD burner, as well as the other $800 in hardware [he] lost this season due to faulty wiring in [his] house."
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/v ... ht=#180343

Some of those arguing in those old fansub threads would probably give him hell for that.

Misty: Who's passed the bar? Have you seen how much some people drink at cons?

EarthCurrent · Post by **EarthCurrent** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 2:13 am

This is going to be one of those issues that will naturally 'cause a lot of debate amongst various creators. Personally, the attempt to create "professional" level DVDs seems a bit ridiculous to me. Even selling them "at costs" raises a lot of issues, especially if it is being done at cons.

Say you are Otaku Joe, super poor, everyday anime fan,and you've allowed yourself only $30 for your mega anime convention shopping-spree exerience--meaning maybe a single DVD. You head into the dealers room and browse around. Wow, lots of neat stuff, but the prices seem high. Yet, you know that the dealers have to recoup cost for travel, dealer room fees, etc, so you knew that things were going to be a bit expensive. Well, you only have $30 of free spending money, so you decide to give yourself some time to think over what it is you really want to buy.

Now, it so happens that you find out that a AMV creator is handing out DVDs of their works and you come upon them. "Look!" S/he says. "I want people to enjoy my AMVs with the best quality possible so we made special DVDs. I'd love to just hand them out free. But that's not feasible for our wallets, but I'm selling them at cost. I don't make profit on these." Well, you think this is marvelous, you love the AMVs on the DVD and the price is low, so you get a DVD from the creator. While marveling over the professionalism put into the packaging of the DVD, you suddenly realize you don't have enough money to buy any of the items you were looking at in the dealers room. But you rationalize to yourself, the dealers were all over priced anyway, and this AMV DVD was a better bargain.

Now, there is the problem: essentially, by purchasing the AMV DVD, a potential sale was taken away from a legitimate dealer selling merchandise in the dealer's room. The same is true in any situations where a fan product is put into competition for your money--whether at a con, or online.

I'm certainly not out to knock on Vic, he put together his DVD for an honest enough reason, I just don't think that people have thought out the economics very well.

MistyCaldwell · Post by **MistyCaldwell** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 2:15 am

Yeah, I do see the making up for wear and tear as being wrong. Or the cost of the burner. It IS the decision of the creator to produce and the people buying should only make up the cost of the media. A small profit is still a profit..even though it makes sense. That is the only part I see as wrong as a creator.

I think the thread author meant to discuss the more..er...philisophical aspect of if this is taking amvs into a whole new realm of copyright infringment or getting the attention of the wrong people. Yeah, I can see how that could endanger the hobby. But it'll never stop creation, only distribution and screening rules. At least that is what I think.

And as for passing the bar...I think the problem with the drunken otaku is that they didn't.