I was about to make a response to this argument along the lines of "WHY does ANY of this matter and WHY must we meticulously categorize and separate American and Japanese animation? I like to think they can both be separate and mesh together without any such controversies like this."
Then I remembered a major reason why this was brought up in the first place: non-anime sources can't be uploaded here. More and more I'm starting to think that a-m-v.org needs a subsidiary site for non-anime amvs...
Should we consider The Boondocks or Avatar:TLA to be anime?
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76
- Ninja mother-figure
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2 little words, !?*$~that.
I mean it would be a good way to gather more donations to the site, and by that I mean reaching that particular crowd
but think about it, who here, came here looking for a kick ass amv
about the teen titans ?
I'm not entirerly against it but I'm not at all for it.
I mean it would be a good way to gather more donations to the site, and by that I mean reaching that particular crowd
but think about it, who here, came here looking for a kick ass amv
about the teen titans ?
I'm not entirerly against it but I'm not at all for it.
Everything came from nothing, therefore everything is nothing.
There's nothing to worry about.
There's nothing to worry about.
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Inaaca
- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:44 am
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Yeah, I suppose. I was just looking at it from my own little perspective. I mean, I'm planning on making a Disney AMV soon, for instance, and it would be nice to have a place like this to upload it to.
I certainly appreciate having the org to upload my work to as it is, so I wouldn't ask anything more from it, I just need to figure out what I'm going to do with my videos that don't apply.
I certainly appreciate having the org to upload my work to as it is, so I wouldn't ask anything more from it, I just need to figure out what I'm going to do with my videos that don't apply.
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ZephyrStar
- Master of Science
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Depends on how you're gonna categorize it.
In a traditional sense, anime would be defined as animation produced in Japan or by the Japanese.
Stylistically, anything influenced heavily by anime regardless of origin (Boondocks, Avatar) might fall into the category of "anime"
I think a big separation occurs in the storytelling however. Boondocks may stylistically look like anime, and it's storytelling style may emulate anime, but it is very distinctly American.
And also, what if I went and made some animation, used Japanese speaking actors, and emulated the style so strongly that the viewer would assume that the animation was from Japan? Did I not just make anime despite being American?
There are some gray areas. For myself personally, I define anime by the traditional sense: Created by the Japanese in Japan. That's basically the definition given by that culture to their animation.
Now what to call the other stuff, I don't know. Most average people would refer to ALL of it (3D stuff like Pixar, anime, Looney Tunes, you name it) as cartoons. And they don't care where it comes from to differentiate what it is called.
Guess it depends on how elitist and nerdy you want to be.
In a traditional sense, anime would be defined as animation produced in Japan or by the Japanese.
Stylistically, anything influenced heavily by anime regardless of origin (Boondocks, Avatar) might fall into the category of "anime"
I think a big separation occurs in the storytelling however. Boondocks may stylistically look like anime, and it's storytelling style may emulate anime, but it is very distinctly American.
And also, what if I went and made some animation, used Japanese speaking actors, and emulated the style so strongly that the viewer would assume that the animation was from Japan? Did I not just make anime despite being American?
There are some gray areas. For myself personally, I define anime by the traditional sense: Created by the Japanese in Japan. That's basically the definition given by that culture to their animation.
Now what to call the other stuff, I don't know. Most average people would refer to ALL of it (3D stuff like Pixar, anime, Looney Tunes, you name it) as cartoons. And they don't care where it comes from to differentiate what it is called.
Guess it depends on how elitist and nerdy you want to be.
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76
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the only problem with there being no destinct definiton(misspelled) is that we'll keep finding ourselves in the position, trying to find what is and isn't legit anime.
and seeing how popular anime is becoming this problem is destined to become more annoying.
but I do think that sticking with the original meaning of anime would solve the problem,
Anime: graphic or animated media made in japan by one or japanese persons
well?
and seeing how popular anime is becoming this problem is destined to become more annoying.
but I do think that sticking with the original meaning of anime would solve the problem,
Anime: graphic or animated media made in japan by one or japanese persons
well?
Everything came from nothing, therefore everything is nothing.
There's nothing to worry about.
There's nothing to worry about.
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76
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EmilLang1000
- Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:10 pm
- Location: In yer base, killin' yer dudes!!!
Again, I point that there are some problems with defining anime as only those media which come from Japan.
Let's face it, there are many, MANY artists out there who are just as good at anime as Japanese Manga-ka, if not better. But just because they aren't Japanese or from Japan, we label them as imitators?
As was said, there are a LOT of grey areas. What if an artist is ethnically Japanese, whose parents immigrated here so they were raised in the states, and is a comic artist here with things published from Tokyopop? There, you get into a funny mix of cultures. A similar problem arises with someone who theoretically produces work in Japan as a Manga-ka but is American (as is the case with Mark Crilley, author of Miki Falls, whose work is printed both in the US and in Japan).
Let's face it; it's getting harder and harder to tell the difference between original Japanese anime and American anime, in some cases so much so that even Japanese people can't tell the difference.
Then you have an even more distinctly grey area: the movement of graphic artists these days both in the US and in Japan adopting a style called Fusion, which mixes sensibilities of both Anime and traditional US cartooning, creating a huybrid style. To be sure, many artists these days have been influenced by American comics (Kazuki Takahashi of Yugi-Oh fame is an avid fan of Hellboy and has a unique edgy look to his comics similar to that of Hellboy.
As anime becomes more and more popular around the world, you can begin to see stories developing that are far more universal and inspired by other cultures. For example, Bleach uses spanish words left and right, and Tite Kubo's entire library of work shows that he seems heavily influenced by Latin and Mexican culture.
Things like Trigun and Cowboy Bebop bring up other interesting problems. Trigun, while having a very typically Japanese sensibility to itself, is very much influenced by American Westerns (obviously), and Bebop is a nearly perfect example of noir. Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex's motifs are obviously taken from Masamune's graphic novel, but also share many similarities and themes with the film, Blade Runner. Hellsing is anything BUT a typical anime and seem much more in line with a Frank Miller novel, if not just an entirely separate style altogether. And let's not forget probably the most American of Japanese animes out there, both in story structure, feel, and the characters themselves: Gunsmith Cats.
With the case of trigun, you get into an even deeper argument - is Trigun a Western? Most anime fans will undoubtedly say, "yes," but many fans of Westerns will vehemently disagree; Trigun isn't set in the Reconstructionist West, the theme of The Renegade vs. The Establishment isn't a central theme, nor is there the idea of Pioneerism vs. Industrialization. In a truest sense, Trigun is "American Western-Influenced" at best.
Finally, as I said before, you have the funny thing of Westerns vs. Spaghetti Westerns. Would anyone who has seen westerns disagree that Sergio Leone's films (A Fistful of Dollars; For a Few Dollars More; The Good, the Bad, & the Ugly; and Once Upon a Tim in the West) are any less important to the development of American cinema that other Westerns, or embodies the spirit of the American Western any less than, say, The Magnificent Seven (which, ironically, is based on a Kurosawa film, The Seven Samurai)?
Yes, there are many good Japanese anime out there. But let's face it people, there are also a lot of over-hyped, sub-par anime out there. In the case of Avatar, it's proven to be an incredibly well-written and produced series, a prime example of a near-perfect Campbell myth (following Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces theory religiously), with no really unlikable characters, except those whom we are supposed to hate (but love to hate, mind you, not are annoyed with). Frankly, I'd take Avatar over Naruto any day of the week, and would dare to say it's just as good (an in some ways, better) than Bleach, even perhaps as good in it's own right as Bebop, Eureka Seven, Monster, Gankutsuou, and Evangelion. Isn't it possible, or rather hasn't it been proven in art time and again, that "imitations" can become just as significant and have as much quality as the originals, if not more?
True, there are some series which I wouldn't BEGIN to debate its worth over some anime. Kappa Mikey, for example, lampoons anime; Megas XLR did as well, but the difference between the two was that Megas was enjoyable to anyone, and yet understanding all the allusions and spoofs just made it better - Kappa Mikey, on the other hand, says "Hey, everybody! Look at me! I'm spoofing anime with an horrendously Flash-style look and calling attention to the staccato-ish nature of the animation to the point it's unbearable to watch, let alone that all of the characters are terrible stereotypes with no personality at all - especially the main character!" In the case of Avatar and Megas, they were both obviously influenced by many anime sources (Megas, by mecha animes, and Avatar, by Miyazaki films), and are produced in anime styles (though, to be fair, Megas is much more of a Fusion style than anime) but instead of flaunting this as a hook of the series, the creators just decided that those were the ways in which they wanted to animate the shows.
The big thing I'm trying to say is this: one, that at some point you have to realize that anime is a style, which most every manga-ka will agree with, and that it can and has spread across the world; two, that by now there are many shows, comics, and movies which are produced in an anime style that are far and away better than most Japanese anime, both in look and in content; three, that it's terrible and, frankly, ignorant to base the idea that just because an art style comes from one country that art in a similar or identical style from other countries is any less true to the original; and four, that it's time to acknowledge these foreign-borne media as just-as-legitimate representations of an style as any from the style's country of origin, though identifying them as per their respective countries may help to clarify.
If we can acknowledge that Spaghetti Westerns are as legitimate a Western as any produced here in America, why must we say that anime ONLY comes from Japan, especially when anime-style media produced in America, France, and all over the world, are proving more often than ever that they are as legitimately stand-alone works of appreciable art as their originally-Japanese counterparts. Is it so hard to accept the idea that Amerime or Eiffelme are just as deserving of recognition and acceptance as Anime as representatives of the style of anime, and no longer just "imitations?" Frankly, with examples as strong and compelling as Avatar and Oban Star-Racers, I can't see why they don't see why they wouldn't.
Let's face it, there are many, MANY artists out there who are just as good at anime as Japanese Manga-ka, if not better. But just because they aren't Japanese or from Japan, we label them as imitators?
As was said, there are a LOT of grey areas. What if an artist is ethnically Japanese, whose parents immigrated here so they were raised in the states, and is a comic artist here with things published from Tokyopop? There, you get into a funny mix of cultures. A similar problem arises with someone who theoretically produces work in Japan as a Manga-ka but is American (as is the case with Mark Crilley, author of Miki Falls, whose work is printed both in the US and in Japan).
Let's face it; it's getting harder and harder to tell the difference between original Japanese anime and American anime, in some cases so much so that even Japanese people can't tell the difference.
Then you have an even more distinctly grey area: the movement of graphic artists these days both in the US and in Japan adopting a style called Fusion, which mixes sensibilities of both Anime and traditional US cartooning, creating a huybrid style. To be sure, many artists these days have been influenced by American comics (Kazuki Takahashi of Yugi-Oh fame is an avid fan of Hellboy and has a unique edgy look to his comics similar to that of Hellboy.
As anime becomes more and more popular around the world, you can begin to see stories developing that are far more universal and inspired by other cultures. For example, Bleach uses spanish words left and right, and Tite Kubo's entire library of work shows that he seems heavily influenced by Latin and Mexican culture.
Things like Trigun and Cowboy Bebop bring up other interesting problems. Trigun, while having a very typically Japanese sensibility to itself, is very much influenced by American Westerns (obviously), and Bebop is a nearly perfect example of noir. Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex's motifs are obviously taken from Masamune's graphic novel, but also share many similarities and themes with the film, Blade Runner. Hellsing is anything BUT a typical anime and seem much more in line with a Frank Miller novel, if not just an entirely separate style altogether. And let's not forget probably the most American of Japanese animes out there, both in story structure, feel, and the characters themselves: Gunsmith Cats.
With the case of trigun, you get into an even deeper argument - is Trigun a Western? Most anime fans will undoubtedly say, "yes," but many fans of Westerns will vehemently disagree; Trigun isn't set in the Reconstructionist West, the theme of The Renegade vs. The Establishment isn't a central theme, nor is there the idea of Pioneerism vs. Industrialization. In a truest sense, Trigun is "American Western-Influenced" at best.
Finally, as I said before, you have the funny thing of Westerns vs. Spaghetti Westerns. Would anyone who has seen westerns disagree that Sergio Leone's films (A Fistful of Dollars; For a Few Dollars More; The Good, the Bad, & the Ugly; and Once Upon a Tim in the West) are any less important to the development of American cinema that other Westerns, or embodies the spirit of the American Western any less than, say, The Magnificent Seven (which, ironically, is based on a Kurosawa film, The Seven Samurai)?
Yes, there are many good Japanese anime out there. But let's face it people, there are also a lot of over-hyped, sub-par anime out there. In the case of Avatar, it's proven to be an incredibly well-written and produced series, a prime example of a near-perfect Campbell myth (following Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces theory religiously), with no really unlikable characters, except those whom we are supposed to hate (but love to hate, mind you, not are annoyed with). Frankly, I'd take Avatar over Naruto any day of the week, and would dare to say it's just as good (an in some ways, better) than Bleach, even perhaps as good in it's own right as Bebop, Eureka Seven, Monster, Gankutsuou, and Evangelion. Isn't it possible, or rather hasn't it been proven in art time and again, that "imitations" can become just as significant and have as much quality as the originals, if not more?
True, there are some series which I wouldn't BEGIN to debate its worth over some anime. Kappa Mikey, for example, lampoons anime; Megas XLR did as well, but the difference between the two was that Megas was enjoyable to anyone, and yet understanding all the allusions and spoofs just made it better - Kappa Mikey, on the other hand, says "Hey, everybody! Look at me! I'm spoofing anime with an horrendously Flash-style look and calling attention to the staccato-ish nature of the animation to the point it's unbearable to watch, let alone that all of the characters are terrible stereotypes with no personality at all - especially the main character!" In the case of Avatar and Megas, they were both obviously influenced by many anime sources (Megas, by mecha animes, and Avatar, by Miyazaki films), and are produced in anime styles (though, to be fair, Megas is much more of a Fusion style than anime) but instead of flaunting this as a hook of the series, the creators just decided that those were the ways in which they wanted to animate the shows.
The big thing I'm trying to say is this: one, that at some point you have to realize that anime is a style, which most every manga-ka will agree with, and that it can and has spread across the world; two, that by now there are many shows, comics, and movies which are produced in an anime style that are far and away better than most Japanese anime, both in look and in content; three, that it's terrible and, frankly, ignorant to base the idea that just because an art style comes from one country that art in a similar or identical style from other countries is any less true to the original; and four, that it's time to acknowledge these foreign-borne media as just-as-legitimate representations of an style as any from the style's country of origin, though identifying them as per their respective countries may help to clarify.
If we can acknowledge that Spaghetti Westerns are as legitimate a Western as any produced here in America, why must we say that anime ONLY comes from Japan, especially when anime-style media produced in America, France, and all over the world, are proving more often than ever that they are as legitimately stand-alone works of appreciable art as their originally-Japanese counterparts. Is it so hard to accept the idea that Amerime or Eiffelme are just as deserving of recognition and acceptance as Anime as representatives of the style of anime, and no longer just "imitations?" Frankly, with examples as strong and compelling as Avatar and Oban Star-Racers, I can't see why they don't see why they wouldn't.
You know what they say: "when life gives you a T-Rex, go ninja-kick it in the head." - Rayne Summers, Least I Could Do
Proud to be a Jenova's Witness - WWSD (What Would Sephiroth Do?)
Proud to be a Jenova's Witness - WWSD (What Would Sephiroth Do?)
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76
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older_gohan
- Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:21 pm
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Amen to that. I think from previous shows such as Teen Titans even possibly Ben 10 people have come to hate any other show to exemplify anime characteristics because older versions have butchered or thrown beyond proportion what Japanese anime was once like. So as a result any further endeavors to make anime style shows are met with skeptism and contempt.
I'm tired of hearing the old notion that "Anime is from Japan." when i sit and watch some half assed japanese cartoon and then watch something like Oban and Avatar and realize that people wont care for the style because an american made it. And obviously any american that atempts to make a anime stylized cartoon can do it no justice.
No offense but Avatar has far exceeded many of the anime's I have watched in quality and plot but gets half the recognition because people won't get past the small hurdle of it being produced in america or by Nickelodeon.
I'm tired of hearing the old notion that "Anime is from Japan." when i sit and watch some half assed japanese cartoon and then watch something like Oban and Avatar and realize that people wont care for the style because an american made it. And obviously any american that atempts to make a anime stylized cartoon can do it no justice.
No offense but Avatar has far exceeded many of the anime's I have watched in quality and plot but gets half the recognition because people won't get past the small hurdle of it being produced in america or by Nickelodeon.