The Truth about AMVs

[Arigatomina]

If we can use the word surprise to encompass everything from personal appeal to reviewability, then it works fine as a catch-all phrase. I just wish there were a term with one specific agreed-upon definition because otherwise it's like saying the video must have something "special" in order to be good. Special = good, therefore the vid must be good in order to be good? That doesn't tell us anything. We're just agreeing that "good" (surprise/appeal/special) means whatever you want it to mean, in which case we're right back to saying that it's a matter of opinion that differs from one person to the next. We already knew that.

Regarding patterns: I think people dislike broken patterns. When we see them it is a surprise, but it's an upleasant one. We fix it in order to make it conform to our expectations, to remove the element of unpleasant surprise. Our satisfaction afterward might surprise us, but we like the end result because it's what we want, what we expect to see and hear, with no unwanted surprises to mess up the image. In this case, surprise is the negative thing that we act to eliminate. You could replace the word surprise with "problem" and the sentences would read just the same.

Expectations: You know that trick where people mix up the letters of words but keep the first and last letters the same? People can read those sentences just fine because their minds automatically rearrange them to fit the spelling they've been taught to recognize. I would say, on a small scale, we're taught to see the entire world a certain way. When we're accosted by things that fall outside those accepted patterns we either automatically compensate to make it palatable, or we balk and get repulsed. This is the unpleasant surprise again. You can learn to like it, maybe even embrace and grow from it (progress), but most of the time you're going to try to change it so it fits into your preconceived notion of order.

[To put the pattern & expectation thing into an amv context: When you review a video you suggest things you would have done differently. The vid is a puzzle being put together by someone else. Even if you like the vid, there will be pieces in places you would never have put them. When you give your feedback you're detailing the "box" you fit the world into. That's why people are free to ignore your advice. There is no correct way to put that puzzle together. Some ways are more appealing than others, but even a disjointed collage of pieces may look perfectly normal to people who view things with the same pattern recognition program you do. This is why I consider amvs to be art. You're not reconstructing a puzzle that has a single clear end picture. You're making your own puzzle one piece at a time and whatever it looks like when you're done, it's good so long as it fits together nicely in your eyes. The key is finding some middle ground so the puzzle that fits nicely to you will also fit nicely for your target audience.]

[Emong]

For example, if you try to say that a good amv is defined by the element of surprise, the excess that is excluded from this is of course an amv which is good but not surprising (or even good precisely because it is not surprising). To pick an example from my own recent favorites: Enchanted. To me there's absolutely nothing surprising or original about this amv but I nonetheless think it's good, perhaps even partly because it fully and shamelessly assumes the rules of its genre.

Thank you for addressing the matter at hand Yet, my argument about Surprise still rings true. By having a video that doesn't Surprise you, and you still find it to be good, that *IS* the Surprise.

The problem with this argument is that it works all too well, encompassing any counter-argument. In fact you're already assuming what you're trying to prove. To demonstrate this point I could as well say that no, the universal feature which binds together all good amvs is not the element of surprise but on the contrary that good amvs always meet our expectations, therefore not surprising us at all. If you think you're getting the kicks out of originality it's only because it's what you're always expecting. Therefore the surprise element is just conformism in disguise. Any counter-argument can be formulated in a paradoxical way like this to support your own thesis. (Although I have to admit I'm often guilty of this.)

I still stand behind my argument that trying to pinpoint specific features and claim them universal is doomed to fail. The moment you do this you create a closure, and a closure is by definition an opening to something new, something that is doomed to be shaken up and violated. But not because we all have an irresistible desire to experience and create new things but because the closure is in itself inconsistent by definition. If we take the surprise element as an example again, we could say that the meaning of surprise, as you already elaborated, is ambiguous on its own. Or we could, like I did just a moment ago, even turn the surprise element on its head and point out that the pursuit of originality has become a boring standard. (Couldn't this explain at least partly why many of us sometimes just feel like editing a simple good ol' action/romance/sentimental/whatever-genre-you-happen-to-love amv, loyal to the rules of the genre? Isn't this also precisely what fanvideo editors are doing?)

I'm not so interested in finding universal features which might bind all good amvs (or any art works for that matter) together. The more interesting question is: why this need for universality? I'm not saying we should abandon this claim to universality altogether because we obviously can't seem to leave it alone. We're not satisfied with our subjective viewpoints. And perhaps it's precisely because of this that the universal dimension emerges: subjective reconciliation is impossible; we are always in conflict with our own subjective viewpoints.

[Phantasmagoriat]

But what if the "surprise" annoys you? then it tips the scale to the bad side

oh, for sure, surprises can be negative *overall* but for a split moment, the surprise catches you off guard. When that happens your brain immediately realizes "Oh, it's that stupid shit again..." and reverts to annoyance because it's like you are being told something you already know, which doesn't lead anywhere new. (which is what the opposite of what a Good Surprise should do).

My first thoughts would be novelty or uniqueness, but those hold the same "it fades over time" connotation. Though I feel "novelty" is more of an innate quality that's true at t0 and beyond.

Yeah, that's a pretty good way to put it. Some things will always have a timeless quality. (I'm assuming that's what you mean by t0 ) And if you focus on studying those types of works, you might discover qualities that are more Universal in nature. (Which comes back to these so-called 'Truths' I keep trying to uncover.)

If we can use the word surprise to encompass everything from personal appeal to reviewability, then it works fine as a catch-all phrase. I just wish there were a term with one specific agreed-upon definition because otherwise it's like saying the video must have something "special" in order to be good. Special = good, therefore the vid must be good in order to be good? That doesn't tell us anything. We're just agreeing that "good" (surprise/appeal/special) means whatever you want it to mean, in which case we're right back to saying that it's a matter of opinion that differs from one person to the next. We already knew that.

Well yeah, that's the limitation of Language I was talking about. Yet if we don't assign a value to an idea that encompasses all the things that make up a good AMV, it's kind of hard to have discussion. Like in programming you need to declare variables before you can do anything with them. Speaking of "specific agreed-upon definitions" Guess what? Definitions are made up of smaller subsets of definitions. That is the whole point of this thread: to come up with all those subsets in order to define "Good" And it starts by identifying Universal Truths which construct the overall definition. Perhaps [original] surprise is one part of it; perhaps enjoyment is another; and appeal is another. All of these things come together into what I am labelling as Surprise.

Regarding patterns: I think people dislike broken patterns. When we see them it is a surprise, but it's an upleasant one. We fix it in order to make it conform to our expectations, to remove the element of unpleasant surprise. Our satisfaction afterward might surprise us, but we like the end result because it's what we want, what we expect to see and hear, with no unwanted surprises to mess up the image. In this case, surprise is the negative thing that we act to eliminate. You could replace the word surprise with "problem" and the sentences would read just the same.

Excellent! this falls right into what I was talking about how we have tenancies to 'fix things' to Bring Order Back to Chaos. And it surprises us when we can do it; the ability to make some sense out of something that maybe shouldn't make sense is when we encounter Surprise. Why do you think some people like puzzles? But you are definitely on to something big with the word Problem. Which is more important? The Problem itself or the Surprise that arises. Maybe they are equally important. Problem may just be another word for Expectation that isn't fulfilled. Surprise may be another word for Expectation that is fulfilled (albeit, after those same Expectations weren't filled in the first place). Again, this falls back to my dual idea of "We Expect to be Surprised." You need both.

Expectations: You know that trick where people mix up the letters of words but keep the first and last letters the same? People can read those sentences just fine because their minds automatically rearrange them to fit the spelling they've been taught to recognize. I would say, on a small scale, we're taught to see the entire world a certain way. When we're accosted by things that fall outside those accepted patterns we either automatically compensate to make it palatable, or we balk and get repulsed. This is the unpleasant surprise again. You can learn to like it, maybe even embrace and grow from it (progress), but most of the time you're going to try to change it so it fits into your preconceived notion of order.

Well yeah, not everyone has the same notion of Order, which relates directly to Expectations. And I think how you react in accordance to your original Expectations says something special. I think there is a Paradox in here somewhere . This. Is. Good. This makes me very happy

• So,
  You can Choose to Accept something as Good, because it fits your sense of Order; and experience Happiness; or
  You can Choose to Reject something as Bad, because it doesn't fit your sense of Order, and experience Sadness (relatively-speaking); or
  You can Choose to Compensate, and experience... what?
  
  What does Compensate even mean? You could go about this two ways I think:
  • 1. Change your original sense of Order to fit your Surroundings (A change of mind) or;
    2. Change your Surroundings to fit your original sense of Order.
  What does this tell us? I think it's related somehow to:
  • Audience vs Artist;
    Consume vs Create;
    To finally experience Surprise; Order; Happiness
  Alright, so if the Goal of Compensating is Happiness, do we always reach our goal?
  No. And that's when we become frustrated.
  
  We try to understand AMVs in a different light
  We try to make AMVs in different ways
  And sometimes it still doesn't do shit.
  
  But that doesn't mean we should stop trying to derive happiness...
  Through a change of mind; or a change of the art itself.
  It should work, because you can do these things an infinite number of ways.
  
  Eventually, something should Surprise you. Or maybe not.
  
  And that's the Paradox.
  
  I still don't know what it means.

You're making your own puzzle one piece at a time and whatever it looks like when you're done, it's good so long as it fits together nicely in your eyes.

I think a lot of this comes back to what I was saying regarding Audience vs Artist. More specifically the line that gets blurred when you consider, AS AN ARTIST, YOU. ARE. YOUR. OWN. AUDIENCE. So then, if I'm saying a good AMV is one that Surprises you, how the fuck do you surprise yourself!!?!! It's a Paradox, once again. and paradoxes always say something special.

And the Biggest Surprise of All is:

Spoiler :

If you can surprise yourself, you must not have seen it coming;
you must not have been in control of yourself.

I'm just going to call this Auto-Surprise.

Granted, part of it has to do with ones inability to control their bodily responses to stimulus. But the other part is probably a bit more subconscious.
I think this is where more Truth resides. Where something more Universal might actually exist, because again, we are all Human.

The key is finding some middle ground so the puzzle that fits nicely to you will also fit nicely for your target audience.

This. Now, I truly believe that if you can do this; you should be able to extend the the process to extend to everyone. The process is conceptualized. The process is there. It just needs to grow to accommodate all. Sure, you could say it would be an exercise in futility; but if there's anything worth doing, that would be it. We may not be able to come up with the idea that achieves this end, but growing the process that could one day give raise to such an idea is something we can all contribute to; simply by sharing what we know. Just talking. Communication. And as a bonus. We just might learn something about ourselves along the way.

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Some more good words:

• Problem
  Order/Chaos
  Style
  Special
  Reaction
  Choice
  Accept
  Reject
  Compensate
  Accommodate
  Goal
  Auto-Surprise
  Communication

[Arigatomina]

Yet if we don't assign a value to an idea that encompasses all the things that make up a good AMV, it's kind of hard to have discussion.

That's what frustrates me. We already have a word that encompasses all of those things. Good. Why not just stick with the word good? We all agree on that. Defining good by saying "good things are good" goes nowhere. It's just time consuming talk.

Replace suprise with XXX if you don't want to use the word good. But everything people attribute to XXX will be something good, something positive that they think makes the video good. So in the end all they're saying is that it's good if it's good. We can list all the things we think a video needs to be good: surprise, lack of surprise, humor, seriousness, etc. We can agree on a lot of those things and tell people to include the most popular aspects if they want their video to be good. But to lump all of those things that make it good under one word is the same as saying good is good.

I guess my point is that we already have our universal term: Good.

What do we achieve by using surprise/appeal/XXX instead of good when the definition of those terms is expanded to include anything good?

This is what you're saying:
A video must have an element of surprise to be good.
Anything good is a surprise.
Therefore a video must have an element of good to be good.

My brain hurts.

[Phantasmagoriat]

Not quite. The words are not synonyms outright. They have very different meanings.
Surprise is the thing that leads to something being Good.
Good is the end result. Surprise is how you got there.

Then if you figure out the things that lead to Surprise, you can continue backwards to see how it all worked.
The eventual goal would be to create a hierarchy, or rather to show all the relations to gain a better understanding of everything.
The map would be massive, but that's the case with all things complex.

@Emong: I might have to get back to you another day. Tomorrow maybe.

My brain is starting to hurt too

/Mode Relax ON

[gotegenks]

just because surprise isn't quite an adequate term for what we're going for doesn't mean we can replace it with anything under the sun and be just dandy with it. Surprise really is the only word our limited vocabularies can summon up to describe this idea.

it's not that anything with an element of surprise is good, it's that anything good (and/or enjoyable) has an element of surprise to it.

the original video = surprising because you've never seen it
the enjoyable video with flaws = surprising because its enjoyable despite its flaws
a video with really generic sources that turns out to be original while still staying true to its genre = surprising because you (most likely) usually dislike videos with those sources
a really enlightening idea that you welcome with open arms because it explains a lot in your life or a lot you've been pondering = surprising because you'd never thought of that.
good video with retro sources or style = surprising because you haven't seen it in a while

but something with surprise doesn't necessarily make something good, it can also make something bad or unenjoyable

the OVERLY original video that just throws out all technique and good source picking just to be the craziest weirdest video ever = annoying (to some, maybe most)
the unenjoyable video that is technically perfect (or near-perfect anyway) = surprising because even though its great you dislike it
A foreign idea that offends = surprising because you're not used to hearing it and its probably something extremish
Heartwarming.

there are a lot of videos these days on youtube that i despise because the techniques used i think are really annoying and i'm not exactly exposed to it a lot, and while they're usually super ridiculously polished they usually just offend my eyes with their poppy girly sources and poppy girly colors and text and slides and HFLASDKFJAGS

and these are all videos on their first viewing, of course subsequent viewings can lose some of that surprise although when something is truly original and new it takes a while for it to wear off, so surprise is a word that explains why things are way better the first time than the 43rd time.

i would assert that surprise isn't what makes something good, but what elicits an emotional reaction out of the viewer. Surprise can have a negative impact on you or a positive impact. If it has a positive impact on you, it could have a negative impact on someone else, but surprise is at the root of that impact. The examples i gave are just in general for here as well, but some people might dislike the likes and like the dislikes, but they're still surprising in some way. Also, some things might be surprising to some but not at all surprising to someone else, imagine a parallel universe a-m-v.org that has our same attitudes and everything but somehow has never seen a linkin park video or a dragonball z video, or a video with flashes or anything. Show that org one of these videos and they may flip out over the surprise.

when i posted my Bleach! video in the announcements, it wasn't really technically anything special, bleach nerds loved it, a lot of people that like my edits but dislike bleach and bleach edits loved it, but it got the most response out of any video i've ever uploaded, and i would venture to say it was because i posted a goddamn random action bleach video on THE ORG. It might've gotten as much bad response as good response as well, but the surprise from seeing it there elicited an emotional reaction out of all the commenters, whether it be good or bad.

surprise explains those annoying-ass comments "i usually hate this source, but you did awesome with it!" that everyone has left at least once. for me it was on one of may's videos, i forget which one (owl city song i believe) but i actually do like that video and most of the appeal comes from the rarity of me liking a video with either of those sources.

when an editor you know personally releases a video, and you know their other work, even if it's still decent, if it's a little worse than usual, it elicits a negative reaction because it has a negative impact on you who know they can do better. When a noob friend of yours finally releases a really good video, you love that shit like it's the video of the decade, because your surprised that they've done a good video! not that you didn't believe in them, it's just it's finally here and WOW! Also why i don't like videos near as much as i would if i never beta tested them so much, because the surprise is worn out, and most of the would be surprises were introduced to me one at a time.

so basically, surprise is a fine word, let's keep using that.

[Fall_Child42]

POOP

[ReggieSmalls]

POOP

x2

[Castor Troy]

42

[macchinainterna]

POOP

x3