Call to Arms: AVTECH4

[mirkosp]

(Or maybe AVTECH 5, The Search For 4)

2012 is getting to a close, and if Maya were trolling us, that means 2013 is coming. The AVTECH 3.1 is from 2010, and as many of you probably realized, it's getting outdated. It doesn't handle BDs well enough, and misses coverage for newer formats (HEVC is coming soon, too). Furthermore, the theory section is currently somewhat confusing yet not as thorough as it could (or perhaps still more than it should?).
So for the next iteration of the AVTECH, we should probably split the guide in two. A very simplistic guide, with a few helper functions to deal with everything you might need, and a very complete guide, which will go through all the details.
There are currently two issues I have in order to set up.
First, somebody should help me with the design of the guide. We need to lay out a clear and simple workflow and this would then need to be written in html/css/javascript/fancy things I know nothing about, so if somebody is willing to help me for that, it would be awesome.
Second, I'd like to have a lot of beta test. Not just from experienced people, but from total newcomers as well. I need to know what is that people most seek to know, how things are clear and all. This would also have a say in the design too.

Right now I believe that there's a basic design phan did, however it's somewhat tied to the older avtech. I'm quite fine with doing a major rewrite of the theory part too. Many people skim it, and it's sometimes confusing. Ideally, I'd like to pretty much integrate the useful theory bit by bit along with the more practical things, so people don't skip on it, and learn just what they need to know. This, at least, for the simplified part. In the advanced guides, I could probably be verbose about without fear.

So yes, let's get this done, but I need your input and help too in order for it to be as helpful, clear, and straightforward as possible.

[TritioAFB]

I could help you in the second area, since I also have to do the similar situation all the days. Wish to help you in the first issue but no idea about making one design

[Cannonaire]

I would not be any use for the first thing, but I could help with the second. Let me know.

[mirkosp]

Well, right now I really am looking for help for the second thing. Prettier design can be done later anyway, and i can just write html on my own if need be.
About the design, this is what I had in mind: the guide homepage itself would be mostly unchanged, as it would be featuring the more complete guide. More or less at the beginning, though, there'd be a link for the more basic guide.

My idea for this is to take a Q&A sort of approach. The following is a partial example of how it would work.

First we should ask if the user does have the avtech 4 software installed, and then would give two buttons, a simple Yes or No. First button obviously brings to the next question, latter button brings to the page with all the software. In this version I'd like to drop the amvapp itself (aside from the avs plugins pack, I guess) and have the users download the recent versions from the sites themselves, so we should be able to avoid the outdated programs and plugins issue (which has been felt with 10-bit avc in the last year or so).

Next question would be something along the lines of "What are you working with?" and would have a button for DVD and BD, and one for Other. Questions sort of start to split at this point.
For Other stuff, I'd first ask "Do you know how to tell what you have?" and if not, I'd bring a page that explains how to use mediainfo in order to make out what one has at hand.
For DVD and BD I'd first have to explain how to rip with DVDFab. I might have an alternative page with MakeMKV since some people don't like DVDFab. DVD Decrypter could be a fallback option since so many people like it and its IFO mode, but I honestly would prefer to avoid it. Then I'd ask precisely if the user has DVD or BD.
At this point, who's following the other route is where he'd get a list of formats and suggested ways to load them, and always reminded to try FFVideoSource if in doubt, and if nothing works, to ask on the forum about the format, whereas DVDs and BDs are split at indexing.
For DVDs, we'd bring up DGIndex in a MPEG-2 guide, easy.
For BD, first I would ask what codec is there. If MPEG-2, I'd just point to the DVD guide, if AVC I'd list the various free and not solutions, if VC-1 there's like only 3 ways to go and the only reliable one requires to pay, but I'd list all of them anyway, and if they have no clue how to check what format they have I'd link the former page about mediainfo (which at the bottom would have "To BD" and "To Other" buttons I guess). Once that's settled, I'd run through the various options, free and not, for avc; same in the vc-1 page.
The various pages about indexing would also ask if they need the audio or not, as I'd like to avoid people to demux audio if they don't have it, and if they do, it's best to teach people how to extract it properly, which can be tricky for BDs.
Then I'd run over loading the indexed projects into avisynth, and for others I'd have a list of formats and how to handle 'em, with ffvideosource as fallback, and link to the forum for worst case.
This would be the first point in which users get exposed to scripting, so it would be vital to explain well what avisynth is and how to use it.

At this point the source line should be there in the script, hopefully. Next in line would be checking if it's progressive or interlaced (and a third option to explain what interlacing is if they don't know), and then ask what kind of interlacing it is if that's the case (pure 50/60i, 3:2 or euro pulldown, or a mix) and, again, an extra option to tell how to check.

And so on and so forth. Basically, in my opinion, currently users just try to glance at the home while looking for the point of the guide they need, and hardly ever read it whole. This is troublesome because they might be missing things they need to know, but at the same time the guide is very long, so just having it all there is daunting and uninviting. A simple Q&A approach should ensure that users gradually understand what's the workflow to get a source ready and they can also skip on reading things they already know, but at the same time it ensures they don't forget steps they need to take (which they can't overlook since the question order is forced) and also teaches everything they need bit by bit in smaller pages, so it should be less intimidating.

I would like to know what you guys think of this idea, though...

[Cannonaire]

Interesting idea. I'll have to think it over for a bit before I form an opinion. It would also be nice to have some sort of navigation tree or w/e also, so you can see every step of the process. That kinda defeats the purpose though I guess.

Instead of having a simple guide and a more complex one, you could have simple instructions to follow and then under something like a spoiler tag you could have the pedantic explanations of why you're told to do it that way.

On the topic of what goes in the AVTECH 4 software pack, obviously the AVS plugins need to be chosen carefully. I would also recommend having version numbers in the file names (IE instead of mt_masktools.dll you would have mt_masktools-26.dll or something along those lines).

[mirkosp]

It's not a bad idea to have spoilers for the why. The main problem is that I intended to have some more automatic things for the simple guide, and be actually thorough in the more complex. As in, keep it somewhat short on ivtc for the simple guide, and possibly cover manual ivtc/yatta for the advanced one. Currently the hardest thing I want to explain in the deinterlace guide would be how to recognize if it's a pulldown or not, and as such if you should perform ivtc or something else.

I'd keep the navigation tree around, though I think that should be kept for the advanced guide. Mostly what I want to avoid is for a new user to be pointed to Read <a href=http://www.a-m-v.org/guides/avtech31/>ErMaC & AbsoluteDestiny's Friendly AMV Guides</a> and then he gets to the tree and then kinda looks around for what he needs here and there and just doesn't understand or does the wrong thing.
Perhaps the simple guide would have a "Want to know more? This topic in the advanced guide." link at the end of every small page. I really want the base guide to be split in small steps with many images. Ideally it might even have a few pages for each step, with some button to get to the next bit. If the pages are too long and don't have enough images, users get scared by the amount of information, so splitting it all up and having many images will probably make it more inviting.

[Cannonaire]

Sensible. I like the direction this is going. Have you compiled lists of topics to cover in each guide?

[mirkosp]

I made a flowchart (in glorious paint) so I have a better idea how to handle the topics.

Obviously most of the topics will have more than a single page, since I want to keep the single pages short, something that wouldn't even require the user to scroll possibly.
I'll see if I can get a simple version with a bunch of the things out there soon.

[BasharOfTheAges]

I like the "choose your own adventure" style you mentioned - It seems like it would help new users out a lot. It's still important to have an index, though, especially to the avisynth related parts. I know a lot of people that pull the current (and previous) guides up to find a concise, limited list of functions to use for cleaning.

[EvaFan]

Since editing amvs with avs files is being purged, this guide has failed me and anyone else who would have liked to try it (If they were informed about it as a possibility anyway which is typically what I'd have expected from a guide to creating amvs).