Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

[Kionon]

Thanks, Nate.

It is helpful when people say they haven't seen these things, because if we assume that I'm not lying (and I'm not), and I have seen a number of instances over the years, received complaints, have PMs I have been specifically asked not to share, then we have a blind spot large enough to sail an aircraft carrier through. And I sure would like to know why that is. Just going by the forums alone (which are searchable by everyone), I could pull out hundreds of examples. Then there are numerous examples in the IRC logs. Then you could expand out to other AMV communities. Then you could look at YouTube comments (which I admit, is just generally problematic for many reasons).

I'm really not making this up. I'm really, really not. It's not just one or two incidents that led to the original notes for the essay, and nor was it one incident that finally pushed me to posting it. I just cannot wrap my head around how all of these examples don't point to a systemic problem. However, even if they don't, then don't we still have issues with people just generally being shitty to each other and using clearly sexist language to accomplish it?

It's extremely frustrating to walk this line between discretion and confidentiality and refusing to grant a lack of evidence supporting my assertions.

[JaddziaDax]

However, even if they don't, then don't we still have issues with people just generally being shitty to each other and using clearly sexist language to accomplish it?

Not to pick one bit and only comment on that, but I really think that in general for MOST people on this site, this is the behavior I see.

If it's not just being shitty then it could be (like say in the case of creepy compliments) just a huge lack of social skills. Someone trying to be nice, who only comes off as weird or creepy instead.

[ngsilver]

Continuing on with the thought of this idea of generally just being shitty, could this all in turn just be akin to the general 'rules' of the internet or perhaps the inherent truth behind the separation of self when on the internet? What I'm trying to get at, is that as far as I know it's generally accepted that for most people their online persona is entirely different then their in-person persona. It is true, text is emotionless and you can hide behind the ambiguity of the physical disconnect that is the internet. Being shitty to someone in real life often has social consequences, however doing it online well... you can pretty much feel safe in assuming that what you say online will have no impact on your real life. And as for the rules of the internet thing, don't we all know that there are no 'girls' on the internet? I could see the sexist comments being an extension of the worst of 4chan.

I don't know of any specific instances in real life interactions between editors at cons and what not that are examples of Misogyny. In fact, generally, I don't know of many instances of general shittyness from the brief real-life interactions I've had and observed at conventions. Overall, to me I see the amv community as a generally open place. But I have more memories of the real life times then those on the internet, and especially youtube. I mean, I've witnessed many arguments and perceived fights on the forums regarding AWA's contests, but when we all show up at the con it's like it never happened. Is this just everyone exhibiting proper social graces because it's 'real life' and the whole being shitty thing online is just related to the physical divide?

This is what I find the most curious.

[AMVGuide]

@ngsilver: That's a very interesting point to bring up. I encourage you to start a new topic called something like: "Online Persona's" and basically just ask "Do you consider yourself to have an online persona? If so, how do you represent yourself online compared to real life and at conventions?"

[Kionon]

But if I can get a man to imagine --for 15 minutes-- what it would be like to live their life as a woman; and vice versa; and everything in between...

I didn't skip this observation, but I wasn't sure how to respond to it. That said, I suppose, I might be one of the most qualified to answer this. I think we're all aware of why I might have a just wee bit of experience with this.

This is a lot more difficult than it sounds, and honestly, fifteen minutes of thought experiments doesn't do it justice. There are significant differences which have to be experienced to be understood. In fact, there are some differences which I feel need to be experienced simply to be believed. And I'm only talking about social differences. I'm not even talking about biological ones, although I very much have insight into some of those as well. Here's a list of my own personal observations in comparison to my lived experiences at various points:

• 1) My personal space is smaller as a woman.
  2) Discussion of my body, including by strangers, is more common as a woman.
  3) My ideas are taken less seriously as a woman than as a man.
  4) I talk less and listen more as a woman. I still talk a lot, of course, but I'm quite capable of acting as a human emotional sink when necessary. This is, in some cases, actually expected of me.
  5) Why do I keep apologising for everything?
  6) I'm considerably more situationally aware of spaces in which I might be in danger;
  7) And I often scan an area and identify escape routes even before consciously realising it.
  8) Key. Between. The. Fingers.
  9) Catcalling.
  10) More hoops to jump through and greater cost for contraception, even if that contraception is being used for other reasons unrelated to sex.
  11) Wage gap.
  12) Comments about my biology which may not even apply to me (Two weeks ago, I had a headache and cramping and considered calling in sick, coworker says, "You should have just called and said you were on your period." I don't have a uterus, and no, it wasn't that funny).

...I could probably go on, but that's a lot, and many of these are regular occurrences. I haven't been catcalled in Japan, but I've been hit on several times in super creepy ways in areas without easy escape routes (like the frikken monorail). Guys, please don't do this. You will automatically get shunted into my "potential threat" inbox. And these are just social issues (although the contraception one meets up with the biological ones). I could do another list on biology, or even restrict it to my own biology, and that would still be a list with a number of entries.

Some of the more general ones absolutely apply as much to personal settings (like AMV communities, hint hint) as they do to professional settings.

@ngsilver: That's a very interesting point to bring up. I encourage you to start a new topic called something like: "Online Persona's" and basically just ask "Do you consider yourself to have an online persona? If so, how do you represent yourself online compared to real life and at conventions?"

Not when it comes to AMVs, no. I do not act any differently online than I do in person. I try very hard not to say anything online that I would not be willing to say to someone's face. I've had to spend a fair amount of time cleaning up lots of personal information on the forums because my lack of persona means I have been careless, and I am now concerned that some of that personal information is a danger to me.

Kionon: What you see (read?) is what you get. Period.

[JaddziaDax]

5) Why do I keep apologising for everything?

I don't think this is a strictly a female quality - my husband does this all the time and I've picked it up thanks to him..

[Kionon]

5) Why do I keep apologising for everything?

I don't think this is a strictly a female quality - my husband does this all the time and I've picked it up thanks to him..

Actually, I almost didn't include that one. It's also very Japanese. But in western culture it seems like many women feel more compelled to apologise as a way of reducing tension.

Any quibbles with the others?

[JaddziaDax]

Well considering I don't know what it's like to be a man, I can't say for sure about the others... Some women have issues with those some don't.

I mentioned that one because my husband has a habit of sayin "I'm sorry" even when he's not the one at fault....

EX:
"I stubbed my toe on the desk"
"I'm sorry"
"not your fault"
"sympathetic sorry"
"ok"

[Kionon]

Well considering I don't know what it's like to be a man, I can't say for sure about the others... Some women have issues with those some don't.

Well, I don't really either. I can only draw on many of the same societal messages that you do. I do however have the additional experiences of other people applying male privilege to me. That "man" is a social construction I've never owned, sometimes I'm left guessing myself. It was never one I was particularly good about "play acting" either. But I can't control others' perceptions or actions, so... This means I am very much aware of, say, the space issues, and I was able to observe it in others. A couple of these are "what's seen can never be unseen" sorts of things.

I mentioned that one because my husband has a habit of sayin "I'm sorry" even when he's not the one at fault....

EX:
"I stubbed my toe on the desk"
"I'm sorry"
"not your fault"
"ok"

This ia different meaning of sorry, the give away is this: "sympathetic sorry" It indicates sympathy or empathy rather than taking blame. I am talking about how I often I accept that an occurrence is my fault.

[Ultimatetransfan]

If gender has nothing to do with the quality of the product, why draw attention to it at all?