Everyone and I do mean everyone run out to Best Buys now!!!

kthulhu · Post by **kthulhu** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 6:05 pm

Maybe. Maybe you just bought a "local version". Maybe the place you bought it in or from has laws against region encoding (it is easier to buy a region free DVD player in the EU, for instance, than a regioned one because of consumer laws that view region encoding as an unfair obstacle to consumer choice). Maybe you want to improve your Chinese. Does the customs agent have every anime DVD cover memorized? Does he know how to spot bootlegs? Does he even legally have to care?

NO! Because creating bootleg discs is illegal, but owning them is not. Why? Because logically, it doesn't make sense to go after and individually prosecute even one million purchasers of bootlegs spread over the nation. That's an individual trial for each of them, and the gains from it (probably the cost of a legal DVD) will probably bare cover the legal fees. Plus the fact that you have to track them down, and then tie up law enforcement (who will care less and refuse or be unable to do so) to bring them in.

Not to mention that most juries probably won't understand the difference between bootlegs and legal copies.

It makes more sense to go after the creators of bootleg discs, and this is what the law does. After all, it's only 5-20 guys cranking out hundreds, thousands of discs, each one representing lost profit. Bust them, bring in their goods, and you have a case for them being guilty of piracy beyond a reasonable doubt. And juries will understand this.

So, to recap, owning bootleg and R2 DVDs IS legal and fine, because "you don't know what's legit and not". Even if you do, the police likely don't (or care), and proving you knowingly bought a bootleg disc will be difficult to prove in court. If you incriminate yourself (which can be thrown out, ironically) by saying, "Look, these are bootlegs!", then you deserve whatever punishment you get for being truly stupid.

Creating and selling bootleg discs is illegal. Why else would someone have expensive DVD coying equipment and tons of copies of legal media laying around, if not to make an illegal profit? This'll be easy to prove and make a case out of.

VegettoEX · Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:44 am

Umm... you guys are making up laws, again.

You can't claim to "not know the law" and expect it to not apply to you simply because you didn't know better.

Ignorance doesn't help you in any situation.

You make a bootleg, you've done something illegal. You buy a bootleg, you've purchased and now own an illegal product, which places YOU against the law.

Officer: "Son, did you know that you have a thousand pounds of cocaine in your car?"
You: "No, officer, my friend gave me some stuff to hold, I didn't know!"

You can't say you "didn't know it's a bootleg" and expect it to suddenly be OK to own it.

Anime is protected by this. The Bern Convention says in article 4 that it protects, "authors of cinematographic works the maker of which has his headquarters or habitual residence in one of the countries of the Union." Japan signed it. The US signed it.

Article 16 of the Bern Convention states: "infringing copies of a work shall be liable to seizure in any country of the Union where the work enjoys legal protection."

They have every right to take it from you.

Oh, and here's the biggie... article nine says, "Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall have the exclusive right of authorizing the reproduction of these works, in any manner or form."

So basically, you're nailed. If you've got bootleg DVDs, you don't have an excuse to somehow make them legal. There's NO WAY I'm going to get into the MORAL discussion, but coming from a STRICTLY LEGAL background... there you go.

Red Wolf · Post by **Red Wolf** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:41 am

I hate to throw us back on topic but...

FYI: The Nadesico DVD set is $60 at BestBuy.com

http://www.bestbuy.com/movies/productIn ... e=11171268

I'm going to hit my local store during lunch and get a price check on it and see if the deal is still, well, dealing.

Chao · Post by **Chao** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 7:53 pm

AFAIK it is illegal to knowingly buy bootlegged merchandise of any sort, you can't be prosecuted for being ripped off.

On importing DVDs. It is illegal to sell discs of a different region than the one you are in. If you are a store in the UK you can't sell region 1 discs from America (but you can sell those lovely Japanese R2 discs). You can as a buyer import them though and have them shipped from a retailer in that region to you. Owning import DVDs is completely legitamate.

KLin · Post by **KLin** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 1:00 am

Okay back to the topic of Anime DVD deals. I searched the Best Buys site again and saw a decent deal for Dai-Guard Volume 1. It's 5 episodes for $17.99.

http://www.bestbuy.com/movies/productIn ... e=11175244

Dai-guard was made by Xebec, one of the companies that created Nadesico. So it should be at least a decent series. ADV probably has packed some nice extras into it as well.

Strange thing though, volume 2 is $19.99 and only has 4 episodes. Oh well. 0_0

I'm going to check out the local Best Buy when I get a chance to see if the website backs up the actual store prices.

the Black Monarch · Post by **the Black Monarch** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 1:43 am

Not one quoted law prohibits ownership of illegally copied discs. They don't even outlaw the copies themselves. They only forbit the process of copying and distributing. Interesting.

I'm going to Best Buy tomorrow

VegettoEX · Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 2:03 am

the Black Monarch: To me, it sounds like you're REALLY stretching to find a loophole. If the very act of copying is illegal, so is the final result (being the copy). This copy has NOT been authorized by the original copyright holder, and is therefore NOT in accordance with the international copyright laws.

Article 14:
(1) Authors of literary or artistic works shall have the exclusive right of authorizing:

(i) the cinematographic adaptation and reproduction of these works, and the distribution of the works thus adapted or reproduced;
(ii) the public performance and communication to the public by wire of the works thus adapted or reproduced.

(2) The adaptation into any other artistic form of a cinematographic production derived from literary or artistic works shall, without prejudice to the authorization of the author of the cinematographic production, remain subject to the authorization of the authors of the original works.

If the author has not authorized "the cinematographic adaptation and reproduction" (the process of copying) of "these works" (the final result of the copying), then both the process and end result are most definitely not lawful.

When it comes down to it, if the item isn't LISCENED, it's NOT LEGAL. In ANY way. You can try all the mumbo-jumbo you want, but the vast majority of these HK DVDs just ain't legal.

Now, I'm sure people will try to bring "fair use" into play. Sure, the item's "not available" in your country, so it should be fair for you to make a copy or obtain a copy for yourself, right? It's only "fair."

Nope.

The first section of article 10 states: "It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their making is compatible with fair practice, and their extent does not exceed that justified by the purpose, including quotations from newspaper articles and periodicals in the form of press summaries."

So essentially, you don't even have "fair use" on your side unless it's ALREADY been licensed in your country. And then if it IS licensed in your country, the copy is DEFINITELY not authorized by either the (assuming we're still talking anime in the US) original Japanese copyright holder or the American copyright holder.

Granted, it sounds like it applies more to written works, but article 14 helps out by saying "the owner of copyright in a cinematographic work shall enjoy the same rights as the author of an original work."

So... uhh... yeah, Best Buy is a great place to find deals on anime!

the Black Monarch · Post by **the Black Monarch** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 3:38 am

So far, everything you've quoted only applies to the process of copying and distribution of bootlegs. Nowhere does it say "posession of illegal copies." Outlawing the copying process does not outlaw the copies themselves, unless you can quote another law stating otherwise.

SugarFreeJazz · Post by **SugarFreeJazz** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 5:48 am

First off, each Best Buy retailer has a different computer system so that if one store goes down the rest of them across the country won't. I purchased my copy of Nadesico at a Best Buy as well and paid 60 for it. Odds are, the Best Buy in question had mispriced Nadesico. No big deal, just you're pretty darned lucky.
Second, from my understanding of international copyright laws, it is illegal to sell or purchase HK bootlegs inside the united states, however ownership is still legal. It has to do with the conflicting laws between Japan and HK as well as HK and the U.S.. By U.S. law, it is illegal to reproduce copyrighted material (save for personal backup purposes), sell l, purchase, or trade copyrighted matereal (strictly speaking ownership is not illegal, but any method of procurement is, so if you have it you are a criminal). It's also illegal to use any characters or storys without permission in the U.S., but in Japan any use of characters and story is perfectly legal so if someone has an idea for a spin-off the don't even have to go through the owners of the rights to the origional series/move/whatever. As for Hong Kong, I'm not even going to TRY to break down the laws there, it just gets very confusing. The end result is that it becomes too hard for anyone to sort out exactly what is and isn't legal between the three countrys. It's kind of like U.S. tax laws where, since every state has it's own tax system, catalogs and internet vendors don't have to charge tax.
This isn't a perfect representation of the laws. In fact I wrote a five-page research paper on the subject of anime importation and didn't have space to describe the whole thing in complete detail (paper got me an A anyway though). In fact, there was so much material that it's really hard to say anything on the subjuct with absolute cirtainty. But from what I understand, that's a fairly accurate summery (even if it is missing big chunks).

RichLather · Post by **RichLather** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:49 pm

To try and wrench this back on-topic:

Is Nadesico[i/] still $29.99 at Best Buy, or did Mr. P get a hell ofa lucky break?