RIAA attack the org?

Joulupukki · Post by **Joulupukki** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:15 pm

I dont understand much of this music mumbo jumbo, but if there would be a way to make the song rip from an amv impossible wouldnt it atleast keep us little safer from RIAA?
since we dont actually spread the song anymore...the whole thing..
like radio...or something..^^
I'd love to back phaede up, but since I'm not even 18 it's kinda hard to help...
I'm not so sure about everyone bailing out if RIAA attacks this place...I mean what are they gonna sue us for except for sharing songs trough amv's (which we arent actually doing)? there's no way they can find out if we actually have the original cd's...

making amv's should be considered the same as any other fan art...I mean if I drew for example a pic of some anime char and started to spread it wouldnt it be illegal too?
we put much effort to these so that our happy community could enjoy...^^

jonmartensen · Post by **jonmartensen** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:04 pm

Propyro wrote:If the Ira cracks down on this site, they will jsut go straight for phade, and maybe larger AMV makers/studios. But if this happens you guys are talking about supporting phade. it's a good idea, and i'd love to do it, but the truth is that as soon as the shit hits the fan were all going to run for the hills.

If the IRA cracks down on the site, the server will be blown up with Semtex.

dokidoki · Post by **dokidoki** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:51 pm

xstylus wrote:
NME wrote:It's one of the only countries that has an actual law that says it's ok. Everyone who lives in canada can download music freely. It's legal.
Er... you're full of it. Mind quoting me the law that says it is? Verbatim, please. I think you're misinterpreting something.

Copyright Board of Canada : Fact Sheet: Private Copying 1999-2000 Decision
referred to by
TCS: Tech Central Station - Blame Canada
referred to by
Slashdot | Canada Immune From RIAA?

koronoru · Post by **koronoru** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:14 am

Joulupukki wrote:I dont understand much of this music mumbo jumbo, but if there would be a way to make the song rip from an amv impossible wouldnt it atleast keep us little safer from RIAA?

Yes, it would, but that isn't possible. You can always rip anything you can hear. Always.

Joulupukki wrote:since we dont actually spread the song anymore...the whole thing..
like radio...or something..^^

It's easy to record music off the radio - people don't usually do it anymore, but when radio was invented, you bet all the musicians were upset that "Oh, people will stop paying to go to concerts if they can steal free music off the radio!", and the same complaint came around again when cassette decks allowed recording off the radio, and the same complaint came around AGAIN when VCRs allowed us to record television (famous court case over that one...), and the cycle just keeps repeating. Note that recording off radio or television is specifically allowed, at least in the USA, under the Audio Home Recording Act and the Betamax decision.

Whenever we get really good robot sex dolls, I'm sure women will be all upset and try to have them banned for much the same reason...

Joulupukki wrote:Imaking amv's should be considered the same as any other fan art...I mean if I drew for example a pic of some anime char and started to spread it wouldnt it be illegal too?

Maybe. It's not exactly the same thing because copyright applies to actual works - so drawing an original picture of your own that happens to be of an anime character, is a lot different from sticking a cel in the photocopier. The issue is whether you're copying the idea or the actual picture, video or whatever. Ideas are not covered by copyright, so if you're only copying the idea you're okay for copyright. Ideas might be covered by trademarks or patents, though... it gets really complicated.

koronoru · Post by **koronoru** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:21 am

dokidoki wrote:
xstylus wrote:
NME wrote:It's one of the only countries that has an actual law that says it's ok. Everyone who lives in canada can download music freely. It's legal.
Er... you're full of it. Mind quoting me the law that says it is? Verbatim, please. I think you're misinterpreting something.
Copyright Board of Canada : Fact Sheet: Private Copying 1999-2000 Decision

There's not a word about downloading in that (except that it says you can download Adobe Acrobat Reader to read the PDF files...); also, it is not a law; and it dates from three years ago. As I mentioned before, "communication to the public by telecommunication", which appears to include the Net, is defined to not be "private copying" legalised by the levy, in paragraph 80.(2)(c) of the current Copyright Act. That's a law.

jhfong · Post by **jhfong** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:32 am

XenoDrake wrote:if we make it so that its not a crime to make AMVs, our ass is outa the fire.

No matter how we try to make it so that it's not a crime to make AMVs, the solution is probably going to end up looking like this: we won't be able to make an AMV unless we obtain permission from the recording artists and anime studios whose work we want to use. Even if they do give permission, you'll have to pay to download each video, and the money will be split between the recording artist and the anime studio. In other words, this would be the equivalent of legal download sites like iTunes Music Store and the Napster relaunch.

Even if the DMCA did get repealed, or the RIAA stops suing file sharers, this site as it's currently being run would still be in violation of copyright laws, and making it legal is going to mean fundamentally changing the way of life of the entire AMV community. Is that really what you want to have happen?

Is there anybody reading this thread who's organized an AMV contest at a con? I understand that some cons pay licensing fees to the RIAA to allow copyrighted music to be legally played in public during the contest. How does this get negotiated? Does it get as involved as making a list of every song that's going to get played and working out how royalties get distributed to each artist?

CArnesen · Post by **CArnesen** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:32 am

jhfong wrote:Is there anybody reading this thread who's organized an AMV contest at a con?

Yes there is...

jhfong wrote:I understand that some cons pay licensing fees to the RIAA to allow copyrighted music to be legally played in public during the contest. How does this get negotiated? Does it get as involved as making a list of every song that's going to get played and working out how royalties get distributed to each artist?

For Sakura-Con, our parent organization, ANCEA, pays for an "event license" from ASCAP that allows us to play pre-recorded music at our convention. This is a flat rate license for as much music that we want to play during the convention. If there are any live performances of music at the convention, ANCEA purchases an additional "live performance" licence. The cost of this license is on a per song/per person basis.

No RIAA will be banging Sakura-Con's door anytime soon...

koronoru · Post by **koronoru** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 12:29 pm

CArnesen wrote:For Sakura-Con, our parent organization, ANCEA, pays for an "event license" from ASCAP that allows us to play pre-recorded music at our convention. This is a flat rate license for as much music that we want to play during the convention. If there are any live performances of music at the convention, ANCEA purchases an additional "live performance" licence. The cost of this license is on a per song/per person basis.

No RIAA will be banging Sakura-Con's door anytime soon...

I wonder if that's really true. I imagine that the small print on the event license indicates that it covers legally purchased, commerically published pre-recorded music - which downloaded files from the Net (especially if they've been edited in unauthorized ways) are not. Also, a license on the music doesn't deal with issues relating to the video.

Org Profile · Post by **Vlad G Pohnert** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:04 pm

CArnesen wrote:
No RIAA will be banging Sakura-Con's door anytime soon...

Tuire, but hopefully they will not go after creators for using the music and creating the videos for public distribution... Having no entires would kill AMV contests

Vlad

jhfong · Post by **jhfong** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 11:31 pm

CArnesen wrote:For Sakura-Con, our parent organization, ANCEA, pays for an "event license" from ASCAP that allows us to play pre-recorded music at our convention. This is a flat rate license for as much music that we want to play during the convention. If there are any live performances of music at the convention, ANCEA purchases an additional "live performance" licence. The cost of this license is on a per song/per person basis.

When you say per person, I assume you mean based on the number of people in the audience for the event, right? So basically, this is the kind of license that would originally have been designed for DJs playing music at a dance party, for instance. Does ASCAP know or care what songs are being played, and whether any of the entries use anime music, which would be copyrighted through JASRAC?

This doesn't have much bearing on a method for distributing AMVs, like the org... it also explains why the con can't simulcast the AMV contest over closed circuit TV, because of the risk of somebody copying the music.

Sure, making AMVs also infringes on the copyright of the anime studios, but they aren't as likely to raise a stink about it as the music industry, because only excerpts of the shows are being used in the videos, and because the anime studios are generally willing to turn a blind eye to it in the same way they do with doujinshi publishers. But in the case of both the music and the anime, if we attract the copyright holders' attention, they have the right to sue us and win. Ultimately, the long-term consequence would be to drive the AMV community underground again.